wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

The reason for Dave Thomas's DQ this weekend

MOPAR engineering measures the valves differently than NHRA

A new TI sheet is being submitted

He passed tech to set the stock record and we passed tech at Fontana

I don't know - seems to me - you grab a set of veneers and measure it - some things seem simple

Dave told me he has a blue print from MOPAR on how it is measured - sorry us old school guys are just not up to date


Too bad for Dave - no record - loss of travel costs - loss of entry fee - not to mention him being besmirched
(be·smirch: 1.Damage the reputation of (someone or something) in the opinion of others)

Watch out new COPOs it has happend to the other two brands



Ron

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

oh well ***** happens...still a damn fine looking Drag Pak Challenger though.

http://www.dragracecentral.com/stori...1116-00250.jpg

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

It can happen to anybody, especially with a "new" car and depending on the manufacturer for the correct info. Not intentional by any stretch of the imagination.

What were they measuring? Head dia., overall length, tip length or what? Can't imagine anybody measuring a valve head differently??? Inquiring minds want to know. Any hints or is it hush hush??

Just wondering........

RJ

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Unfortunately, most people don't care about whose fault it was or why it happened. To them "You got bounced in teardown" or worse yet "You got caught cheating"

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Dave was not cheating - It was MOPAR's mistake

It was the head (big end) they were measuring - as I said - how in the f... could MOPAR possibly screw that up or need a blueprint

I am sure I will hear about being so hard on MOPAR - if an engine builder made the same mistake - there would be hell to pay - not just - as one person put it on this thread "***** happens"

Ron

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

If memory serves, the same thing happened recently to Charlie Downing. What's with these corporate engineers? Give them a fancy name and they forget the simple stuff? Jim

.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

As I remember it happened to Ford a few times
1966 or 1967 427 pistons
1st year of new CJ's pistons
The next year it was something else
Charley Bobs deal
It happens when people don't know how NHRA does things. They don't do everything wright but they do have the final call!

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

What was the deal with Irv's deal?

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

A professional stock eliminator engine builder would have measured the valve the right way and in Irvin's case with no number on top of the piston would have called California for clarification. You can't assume these motors are going to be right when you get them.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Gregg that was the same thing Curt Lashure told me a few years ago after I set a record at Atco. The piston dish was .375 off.
He explained that some aftermarket manufacturers would submit a piston and then build a different piston with the same numbers for a customer.
After listening to the stump speech for what seemed like an eternity. I explained (or tried to for about the 3rd time) that the pistons in question were not stocker pistons. But stock assembly line pistons, that came in ever 2.5 turbo mopar ever built (a couple of million).
When I explained that a .375 difference would make any diesel proud. He looked at me with a bewildered look.
The outcome was they let california make the call. I was not allowed to race that weekend and was never offered a refund. Even though I was totally legal (as per california).
Another go round was when they tossed me for having my pistons to far down the bore.
He told me it could be an advantage allowing more piston to valve. But then told me I could run any thickness head gasket.
I miss Gregg X's common sense.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

And Salty Dog said: Who are their engine builders?

That is who I would be blaming, not MOPAR. Who takes an OEM engine and just runs it? Do that and you deserve what you get. Ever hear of production tolerances? The "engine builder" had to have access to NHRA's specs. Why was everything not measured?

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Now that was an unexpected response ED

You could hardly call these OEM motors - they are complete "race ready" spec motors from Arrow Racing and two of them had been through NHRA tear down before and passed

I know Arrow built these as good as any engine builder out there - they just did not know MOPAR made a mistake - they used the valve which was identifed to go in the heads - stock size for a Gen IV viper engine - The TI sheet was submitted to NHRA after the engine building started - the valves used were appearently incorrectly measured by MOPAR engineering - used a blue print to figure out how to do it - LMFAO

"this is not your father's Oldsmobile"


Ron

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

What you do is measure everything against NHRA specs. That's what you go by.
If that is who built it, they should not have assumed. I would be concerned if I owned one.
I hope they don't charge much. LOL

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Thanks for the instruction

No Problem - all MOPAR had to do was submit the corrected TI sheet

Its a beautiful thing

Ron

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Comes down to one thing: all the engine builder had to do was measure everything. That simple. That is who is at fault. If I couldn't do my own I would use a known builder of NHRA legal engines. Not some road racers.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Cool looking car !

20-30 years from now, it will still look cool.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

You can't assume anything is right. You have to measure. Do you think that Arrow rolled the cam and checked every lobe to make sure the lift is right? I bet Don Little or Bruce Parsons or Bub Whitaker would have. Do you think they poured all the runners or every combustion chamber? Did they weigh a piston and rod assembly? All of us have to play by these rules. So Chrysler gets to change the spec after the fact. Why doesn't that surprise me.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Could be the vendor (chances are MOPAR didn't actually make the valves.) missed the spec. Can't blame MOPAR. It's the builder.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

I am glad MOPAR was willing to help all of the people out who really made the mistake and changed the TI sheet with NHRA

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

It's too bad a "clerical error" got someone DQ'd.


The flip side is that I check all my parts against the blueprint guide from NHRA. Jimmy Bridges does my heads, and he checks everything he does, every chamber and every port, my heads have Jimmy's cc numbers all over them when I get them. I check the valves before I ever give them to Jimmy, and then he and Chris check them again. That's the great thing about having a guy like Jimmy do your stuff. Jimmy will tell you that "if you get torn down, I'll be there like Johnny on the Spot".

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

As I understand this, we're talking about measuring the head of the valve. If so, I for one would like to see Mopar's Magical Mystery Technique for acquiring this measurement.

Sounds more like.... "put any size valve in it and we'll issue the paper work to cover your arse."

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

There were numerous tech spec errors on the first generation Drag Paks in 2009.

We kept waiting for next tech bulletin:
Titanium retains; not allowed.
Piston dome height; wrong
Rocker arm ratio: wrong
etc.
etc.

But we knew what the specs read.

And where necessary, we got parts like the piston, that matched the specs. And since in the case of rocker arms, there weren't even any after market parts even being made. So stock factory rockers were all that we could run. And we just ran them and hoped.

Finally all of the spec wrinkles on the 2009 were ironed out.

But, as hard as the guys at the Drag Pak project at Mopar worked, there aren't enough of them, nor is this their only project.

I am not offering any kind of excuse for their oversight on the spec. It shouldn't have happened, but I can see how it did.

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Hey all those things are understandable but the bottom line is that this is NHRA drag racing, not Mopar factory racing and if the parts don't meet the NHRA specs, they are not legal.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

In my case there were no piston specs for the 392 till March of this year. My engine was built with Diamond pistons as per NHRA specified with NHRA Logo and Diamond pistons engraved on top (early Drag Pak pistons had no engraving on top that was added after the first ones went thru teardown). There was no part number or ring spec in book til this March. My engine builder only had what was available for specs last June when my engine was built. He trusted Diamond to build pistons per NHRA as they were a approved vendor.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Irv, are you saying NHRA allowed you to race a car with an engine that did not have clearly defined specifications in the blueprint guide?

How did they expect to properly inspect an engine at tear down if there was no published specification, or even an accepted part number?

The blame for that lays solely at the feet of NHRA.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Not unusual for the newest cars

Our V10 was the same deal - that is why I dislike someone accusing the engine builder of being stupid or us not doing what we should have

The engine builders did the best they could and so did we

BTW so did the factories and NHRA

Now all of the jealous haters can jump on that but I will say "Elvis has left the building" - LMFAO

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

[QUOTE=Alan Roehrich;324543]Irv, are you saying NHRA allowed you to race a car with an engine that did not have clearly defined specifications in the blueprint guide?

How did they expect to properly inspect an engine at tear down if there was no published specification, or even an accepted part number?

The blame for that lays solely at the feet of NHRA.[/QUOTE

Not exactly , we didn't find that out till today there were no specs on Diamond pistons in the 392 until March
all the other specs were posted,
ie: bore, stroke , valve size, cam, deck, head gasket thickness, throttle body size.rockers .

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Alan have you ever seen them look at a turbo? I have and I haven't seen anyone even look at where you could modify it to gain an advantage. They don't have any numbers I even gave them a turbo to take back and measure but it wound up in the trash.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

No, the OEM and NHRA did not do the best they could. That's a cop out.

I've been through the approval process for various approved Stock Eliminator parts. Never once did NHRA offer to let me run a part that either had no spec, or had no published spec, or did not have the required approval number on it. In fact, I had two new sets of approved pistons with the correct part number, in my hands and ready to go into the engines, when NHRA rescinded their approval over 0.005" of dome height, when the piston did in fact have 0.001" less dome height than the maximum allowed. NHRA came back and told us the pistons were not approved, had to be remade, and resubmitted. I waited 6 months to get my pistons the first time, then 3 more months. Both times NHRA had my parts in their possession for an extended period of time.

So no, Ron, I do not buy the idea that NHRA and the OEM did the best they could. They held me and my piston supplier to a far higher standard. I never got to race a part that wasn't listed and did not have a spec in the guide. No, they best they could do is for everyone to go through the same process and be held to the same standard.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

I agree...also wonder if they will have this all figured out by then...race politics.

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/wp-cont...-11-2s-077.jpg

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

I was just thinking, does anyone know which Drag Pak Challenger it was...the Hemi or V-10 that got tagged?

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/wp-cont...4/DSCN9581.jpg

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Yes it was the V10

BTW - all of the V10s were/are really nice cars from MOPAR

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...35003135_n.jpg

I hope it turns out to be as good of an investment as it has been fun

Ron

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Trusting the supplier to do the right thing is the wrong thing to do. The builder should always verify what can and can't be done with tech. Usually in the form of a letter. (however, in the past few years, even a letter isn't worth the paper its written on). There lies the problem. Tech has been over ruled so many times that its all BS. I have freshened many "legal" pieces that had the proper # as per tech and were built totally different than the spec or intention of the rule. Its not hard to stamp letters/numbers/logos on parts.
Like Alan, I have had parts held for long periods of time, finally approved and then notified weeks and even months later that the approval was void. I have made it right by re-doing parts, no charge, even to the point of buying the newly re-defined part at my own expence along with machine work and other parts that were necessary to make this piece "legal" and make it work correctly. Then watch what I was NOT allowed to do go right thru teardown without a word said.
As much engineering and design as was supposed to be done on these super car engines (Ford,Mopar and probably Chev.) there is no excuse for any of these people to be dq'ed. Except for the fact that there is apparantly a lack of knowledge as to the amount of blueprint time required to build a truely fast and completely legal S/SS combination under the rules and guidelines set forth by the santioning bodies. Also, a lack of communication between manufacturers and tech. The attitude of building a regular car seems to be: put it out there and we will work on the problems as they arise. Any dealer tech can tell you stories about the amount of tech bullitins, recalls, replace it free only if the customer complains enough, etc...

Sorry for the long post but I know what its like trying to get a straight answer from aftermarket suppliers and from tech depts. Also, I didn't know there were different ways of measuring the diameter of a valve.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

I was involved with the teardown of the Fords last year and in their case, part of the problem involves the way the specs are sent to NHRA in the 21st century. Now all the automakers have converted to metric (remember that?) and all the specs have to be converted to Inches. Stop and think about how much effort has to go into sending in the tech specs now, as opposed to how it used to be. It is not hard to understand why the car manufacturers don't send in all the specs for every car they make. Sometimes conversions are miscalculated and the problems begin. Most of the racers with the new cars are not doing their own engine work, so it is easy to understand how problems can compound.. How about giving everyone involved a little slack. It is not as simple nowadays to just send NHRA the specs as it used to be. Maybe it is time for NHRA tech to get in the 21st century and use the new metric specs. How many would like to see this?

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

They should be able to send in the specs what ever way they want. i know on my didgital calipers it is a simple press of the button to switch to metric.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

By all means. They got 50-100HP worth of "slack" when they got factored. Poor OEM's, by all means, we need to cut them more slack for getting parts approved and getting the correct spec in the class guide. They should apply the same standard to the blueprint guide as they did the factors in the class guide. Anything within 100HP or so is plenty close, so why bother with correct blueprint specs. And I'm all heartbroke over that work load those poor guys are suffering, some of them haven't put a street legal car in the class guide for 4 years. I mean, damn, it's pretty tough to get the correct specs in the class guide for 1/2 a dozen engines. Heaven forbid they have to convert metric to inches, too! Oh, the humanity. :rolleyes:


I suggest you go try to sell a product or service to an OEM using the crappy loose standards they've been using to submit specs to the class guide. I hope you don't care anything about staying in business, keeping your house, or eating.


Yeah, cry me a river, those poor, poor, destitute and over worked OEM's. :rolleyes:

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

It sounds like Arrow is not up to speed on how racing NHRA Stock Eliminator works. I don't doubt they know how to build engines, but they really should have reviewed the spec sheets provided on NHRA's web site. Actually, they should have been one of the first people to point out the mistake if there was one.

I can guarantee you that if I built the engine I would have checked the spec sheet instead of blaming Mopar. Sure, maybe they submitted the wrong info, but the fact is that the rules were in writing and that is what we go by in NHRA.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

We built a 392 last year but chose not to run it because there was no approved piston. We were told that if we ran a standard bore size it would have passed as a factory piston. But since we bored it out there was no way it would pass because there was no approved piston listed.

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

OK - I will make one last comment - there was no spec sheet.........get it.......the specs were not published until after the engines were built..... I am not sure how that process worked....if I could delete this thread I would - I was only defending Dave - sorry - my humble apologies to all of you top flight engine builders who know so much more than anyone else


Ron

Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR
 

Don't the OEM's usually measure differently than the total OD of the valve? I have seen the 428 CJ being called 2.06" in old Ford internal documents instead of 2.09".