Track is making up rules
 

I know this is a bracket race problem but just wanted to put it out here for all to see and get your feed back.

My home track has decided to make up a rule about breakouts.

"As of July 9th, MRP will be following the rules for breakouts as are printed in the NHRA 2011 rulebook on Page 6, with the following exception. This rule will apply to all Bracket Catagories. If a competitor breaks out of his posted index, he will be warned the first time and will be disqualified the second time. This warning will apply for the year, not for each individual race."

The head of tech thinks that the rule for the .90 class cars should apply to the brackets cars also and has rammed this down our throats.


I have been fighting the good fight on this one trying to make them see how the rule does not apply to bracket cars but have not gotten them to back down yet. It's on the team forum at www.teammission.com if any one has any input.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

sorry to here that why dont you just dial 20 flat and run it out the back door first round no break out ?

Re: Track is making up rules
 

I dialed a 12.00 and ran a 12.016 flat out first round against Don "The Worm" Elgin . Touched the high 11.90s next 2 rounds after that. The head tech guy tried to convince another racer into protesting me after the third round double breakout, He wouldn't so now we have this.

I have spent a fair amount of money to slow the car down and make it consistant and almost had it perfect Sunday. The Good news is that Kelly went 3 low 12.0s in a row so I think I have her car figured out finally. ;-)

BTW I would have gone 11.999 flat out in the final.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

I see yellowbullet was a lot of help. Half of the guys on that forum don't even race so what would they know. Are you running a Index class.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Sounds like they are trying to keep you PRO'S out of their sportsman class. Maybe they consider sportsman or bracket three a newbie or street car class. I don't agree but I've heard those kind of rumblings before at other tracks.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

I run sportsman because I don't want to run electronics, Just doing what I can with the rules they gave us. This rule affects a handful of more racers than myself.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

I guess 'no electronics' means just no delay box these days. I remember one year in tech I was wrongfully accused of having worn out slicks as per the rules ( which only applied to street D.O.T. tires) and told not to come back till I replaced those tires. I raced everywhere else for two years with the same slicks, then the tech people were asked to step down due to their shall we say dictatorship of tech inspections. Point being sometimes it is best to do as they outline and sooner or later things will work themselves out. By the way what has been your win-lose ratio there Mr.track champion? haha

Re: Track is making up rules
 

What track is this ??

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Mission Raceway Park in Mission, B.C.

As I posted on another forum, as long as you dial a 12.00 or slower, you should be good to go. Breakouts happen. It is really splitting hairs to bounce someone that runs an 11.99 or quicker-especially if the car is legal to go that fast (no roll bar rule until 11.49).

It really opens up a can of worms-in all bracket classes! Sounds like someone is looking out for Car Club members (track is run by the British Columbia Custom Car Association)!

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Mr Marvetz, slow your car down to 12:15, Congrats. on beating Don Elgin, one of the greats of the sports, anytime you beat Don Elgin you've accomplished something. I have to agree with the track, don't break out of your index, if it's 12:00 to 12:99 and you go 11:99 I'm sorry but you broke out. If you want to be the fastest than you're taken your chances. Are you trying to be the fastest to have the benefit of the first to red light or just seeing your opponent all the way? Either way they are right, and you have to play by their rules, it's only fair. I've raced in this context many years ago and I made sure that my car wouldn't run any faster than 12:03 flat out. Claude

Re: Track is making up rules
 

The issue is, that has never been the rule. A track manager selectively chose to change the way it had always been run. Read the NHRA Summit E.T. Racing rules. It says nothing about a breakout-only the 12.00 limit in Sportsman.

Phil has a gripe here. It again comes down to interpretation of NHRA rules.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Jeff I was thinking of specific index such as 12:00 to 12:99 and 11:00 to 11:99 If this was explained at the beginning of the year at the racers meeting than it's whatever the track owner sets as his rules. Dale Wilson former editor of Bracket Racing USA had an article on the subject many years ago dealing with this problem and his recommendation was to go to the track management and ask for the rules of his track( every time you went to a new track). Now if the management is changing what is their official rules halfway through the year, now that is different. Just go to another track if one is available. Claude

Re: Track is making up rules
 

disqualify everyboby then they can shut the gate because of this steupid *** rule?

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Claude, I completely understand what you are saying. If that was how the rules were presented, at the beginning of the year, then all is good.

The rest of the NHRA tracks-that compete in the NHRA's Summit E.T. Racing Series-do not do it the same way. This presents a problem. Mission Raceway is among the elite in the Division, and to have the rules change mid-way-without the input from the racers (which is the way they always have done it)-undermines the Mission Team's ability to compete on a level playing field, and alienates the racers.

If NHRA did this as a wide, sweeping change of the rules across the Nation, then I would agree that everyone is in the same boat. But, to change at one track-on the whim of a Manager- is unacceptable.

This is why tracks have Class representatives. Apparantly, they were not advised of the proposed rule change.

I have no dog in this fight, but right is right.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

sorry phillip i didnt get what you were saying, if they go faster than 12.00 in sportsman they should loose period

Re: Track is making up rules
 

I didn't beat Don, He let me have it. Our win/lose ratio is in his favor by a long ways. I ran 12.01 flat out trying to catch him so it's not like I was holding a tenth all day. The car picked up a few hundredths after first round and I got lucky on 2 double breakout races. .008 in the 3rd round.
That's when this all started, The head of tech stopped the fellow from 3rd round and told him he should protest me. He refused to protest the race but did go ask the race director what the rule was, They both went thru rulebook and couldn't find anything. The race director came to me next and my response was that the tech was mistaken about the rule. He then went to the tech guy and they went to section 2 page 6 and decided they could use that rule. That rule is for .90 class cars at NHRA event's though, Not Summit E.T bracket cars. I pointed this out but the tech guy won't hear any of it from me. The race director was supposed to contact NHRA for more info and get back to me. A few day's later this new rule is posted on the website.
I can slow the car down and be safe but that really isn't the point. I just want them to do what's right, Not cram a made up rule down our throats. They could have called a meeting of the sportsman racers or consulted with the class reps for input.
The funny thing is last year was dominated by cars dialing the bottom of the index, not this year though. A lot of the slow cars have won, Jim Mantle even took me out the first weekend with his Pacer.
I know they can do whatever they want but this seems unnecessary and not very well thought out.

It is a club owned track but none of the members race in sportsman as far as I know so I don't think that is the reason, Unlike Bremerton

Dion, I've won 2 out of 7 completed races so far, There were 3 cancelled races also. Are you coming down for the National open?

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Larry,
The winners of the E.T finals that go to Pomona for the world championship don't get Dq'd for breaking out, Why should I?

Re: Track is making up rules
 

For those who are confused, Phil is not talking about a dial-in or an index. He is discussing the "top and bottom" of the elapsed time "breaks" for a given eliminator.

As an example, many tracks offer Super Pro Eliminator "breaks" of 6.50 seconds to 11.99 seconds indicating the minimum and maximum permitted dial-ins. Phil is describing a Sportsman Eliminator "top break", (minimum dial-in), of 12.00 seconds. In this scenario, he was dialed "at the break" of 12.00 and won a double-breakout race, (or ran all-out on a single), with an 11.99 or quicker.

This has been the only real "rule" in bracket racing performance since the genre was created in the early 1960s. While the class "breaks" vary between tracks, the minimum dial-in has always been the only dividing line between eliminator categories. A handful of tracks do offer warnings but most simply disqualify the driver who "walks the tightrope" by dialing on the "break" and slipping. Ironically, I find this rule almost universally in place at non-sanctioned tracks.

The NHRA and IHRA have a "courtesy rule" in the Junior Dragster ranks in which the first violation is overlooked but, when racing "big cars", you take your chances. It's all part of the game.

Anybody who races at a track which allows two violations in one day is lucky. The fact you still get one free ride is extremely rare and, Phil, you should be grateful for it. Most folks would simply be shown the gate.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

It looks like most of you still dont understand what phil is talking about. In sportsman class you can not put a dial in on quicker than 12.00 that is the rule at all div 6 tracks.This is new for this year at the div 6 et finals. Last year it was 12.80 for all the tracks you could not dial quicker than 12.80.But if you turned 12.79 or quicker you were not dq it is just a brake out.closes to the dial wins just like it should be. Turning 11.99 on a 12.00 dial is no difference its just a brake out. Ive been racing in the bracket classes for 42 years and ive seen a lot of rule changes and to be dq for brakeing out on a legal dial in of any kind isnt one of them. The bottom line is you can not put a dial in on that is quicker than the class your running if you brake out its just that a brake out and may the best racer win. If you still dont under stand get a hold of the div 6 tech director and he will explain to you.DON THE WORM ELGIN

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Thanks for the post Don, I think this whole thing is your fault for letting me get past first round anyways, LOL. Thank's again buddy.
I have heard that the Div6 director has been put in the position to dq racers a few times now and has not. That makes it pretty clear that breaking out is not a rulebook violation.

Thanks for all your input guy's,

Phillip

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Phillip, It was explained to me once that there is a line in the rule book that pretty much says that the track operator can pretty much do as he pleases with his track. That was also the day I left said track after not missing a race in 5 years (2 of those years I lived 306 miles from the track one way). He had decided that you can use a replacement car during eliminations if you broke. Of course you had to be one of his buddies to know about the rule.
Fact is on their bracket program they can do as they please no matter what the NHRA rule book says. You just have to decide if you want to play by their rules or not. If you do race there If you really don’t like the rule race some where else.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

In todays economy, with car counts in the toilet, tracks struggling to make a profit, and the future showing no sign of improvement, Why, would any Fool of a track manager DQ a car for a whole year?

Re: Track is making up rules
 

I don't see how this rule is similar to the rule for .90 cars. A .90 car can run .80s all day long and still win the race. Under the new Mission rule if two cars racing each other both have one warning and they both run under the class minimum, they both should be disqualified.

The new Mission rule is totally made up and has no basis in the NHRA rulebook.


-Toby

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Could someone please explain the reasoning or rationale behind a rule such as this?
That is, providing the car passes the safety and tech rules for the next higher class.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

phillip just me but if you go faster then 12.00 you should be out, i see know reason to let you go 11.99 and win, if you both go 11.99 both are out.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Larry did not read my post and still doesnt understand bracket racing. 11.99 has nothing to do with dialing your car 12.00 it is just a brake out. its still the closet one to your legal dial in that counts. Last year we could only dial 12.80 in sportsman so are you saying if you run 12.79 your kicked out ? I broke out a lot of racers running in the 12.70 and if i was closer to my 12.80 dial i usually won the race on there brake out but no one was ever dq for brakeing out. DON THE WORM ELGIN

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Mark,

Sounds like a familiar story to me. A few people who are dialing 12.0s and running in the 11s occasionally are winning a few races, so they must have an unfair advantage.

Kind of like those people who used to knock the pre-stage lights out. :rolleyes:


-Toby

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Same deal in Pro. Div.6 changed Pro bracket to 9.0 (for a min.) last year. I went to the bracket finals in Mission and ran many (many) 9.01-9.04 passes. I asked Adams what would happen if I happen to run a 8.99. Would I be tossed? He said no and not to worry about it. Just dial 9.00 and have at it. If it's a double breakout and I was closer to my dial, I'd still be in with no issues. 9.00 in Pro and 12.00 in Spt., is simpily the quickest one can dial, in said classes. No cause to DQ for running under.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

12:00 is the quickest you can DIAL, not the quickest you can RUN.

You dial 13:00 and run 12:50 and I dial 12:00 and run 11:51.

I win because;
(1) I dialed within the parameters of the class (12:00 minimum) and
(2) you broke out worse.

Unless it is stated in clear and concise wording that "you cannot run quicker than minimum dial" it is horsecrap.

On the other hand there is also the "it's my racetrack and I'll do what I like, you don't like it then leave" mentality which never helps.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

I was racing in Woodburn Ore. a few years ago and trying to slow down enough to race in sportsman. My first two time shots were .05-.08 to fast and was told to move to pro or park it. Simple as that. They evidently feel that you should be in the correct class for your cars capability to lessen the chance of having to dynamite the brakes to take a bunch off.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

And I fully agree with that. However, if you would of slowed down enough not to raise eyebrows and be able to dial inside the class, there would be no issue.
In other words, if your running a 10 sec car and slow it to 13:00 and dial it 13:00 there is no issue. And if your running 13:00 at 110mph..well your the same as a new stock 5.0 mustang with a good top end charge. (and no I don't agree with a 13:00 170mph car running 13:00 97mph cars)

Re: Track is making up rules
 

DON i get it i just dont think you should be able to go faster than 12.00 in sportsman PERIOD

Re: Track is making up rules
 

I am confused about the rule they claim to be following. In the Super classes you are not DQ'ed for going under the .90 are they saying if a 9.90 car runs under 8.90 it is DQ'ed?

Re: Track is making up rules
 

No, they are confused. They are saying if you run 10.899 in s/st you are out.(wrong) Obviously if the other guy runs 10.895 the guy running 10.899 wins a double breakout race. This is a silly rule and should be changed back.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Larry,
Putting personal feelings aside can you come up with a reason this rule should be followed based on the rulebook we all have to follow?
The problem I have with the track making this rule is the tech guy quoting a rule from another class of cars.
It would be like saying all stockers have to use an engine diaper because super comp has to.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Phil larry will never get it he doesnt run in sportsman and has no car that will run 12.00 .And if he gets one bring it out and line up next to me and phil and see how easy it is to run in sportsman. DON THE WORM ELGIN :cool:

Re: Track is making up rules
 

Hmmm,
I see a grudge match forming, Maybe I'll have to come down to Seattle this weekend. LOL

Re: Track is making up rules
 

I guess the next time you race there Phil,shut the car off at the 1000` in time trials and dial 12.20 for elims. No "offensive" breakouts will occur and you should be good to go. Just be ready for the slow car that disappears just before the stripe that`s on to you.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

That's all well and fine,but let's put it into perspective of S/SS racing.I don't think guys should click it at 1000'.I don't see anybody looking to change that sceneario.Just saying.

Re: Track is making up rules
 

If they will let you dial 12.00 they have to give you some allowance to breakout.

I have an idea. Why don't they change the rule to say if you run faster than 11.90 you are DQ'd after one warning? Or if they are so concerned about cars running in the 11s, make the minimum dial 12.10 and a DQ for anything under 12.00.

What do you think about that, Phil?


-Toby