Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

I apologize if this was discussed or proposed in the past.

In super stock, what if we could pair up modified and modified stock cars for the first round or first 2 rounds depending on car count and pair up traditional SS or GT cars just to try and increase parity in the later rounds in the category?
If modified and modified stock have an obvious David vs Goliath advantage over SS cars in terms of engineering, aerodynamics, rulebook and tear-downs, could this even up the playing field just a little bit and maybe get some more true class cars to Sunday?

Pros: More parity in later rounds, increased amount of heads up runs in modified classes which crowd always enjoys seeing,

Cons: How ladder(s) would work,

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

LOL....We could always have a top stock, middle stock, and Jr. stock like we had at local tracks back in the 60's. Oh wait......we dont have enough cars racing anymore.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

How about random first round pairings to get rid of the ladder games?

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Been there, done that. It was the second worst format ever implemented in Stock Eliminator (second to "index dials with no break-out" racing).

In some ways, "random" pairings must have been comical to watch from a bird's-eye view. The over-the-record or lame-*** drivers usually found that any time they left their pit spot for a round of eliminations they would be leading the cherry-pickers all the way to the staging lanes like a pack of neighborhood dogs-in-heat on a summer afternoon. In today's world, the Dan Fletchers, Lang Brothers, and Joe Santangelos (no offense intended, guys) would be keeping an eagle eye on the lame ducks in the field and following them to the staging lanes in a string. In fact, they would probably get together ahead of time and make sure that they divided up the pigeons for a tasty first round snack. When I started racing Stock I thought it was cool that the bad-boys like Val Hedworth, Joe Allread, Bob Lambeck, Willard Wright, and Dave Kempton (further apologies to the living) were so willing to pit close to me and the other rooks. Later on, I realized that every time I started my car, one of them was in my rear view mirror and if I headed to the staging lanes, they surrounded me like wolves circling to pounce on a wounded deer.

In retrospect, it probably wasn't all that bad because it chased the panty-waists and ribbon-clerks out of the sport very quickly. You either improved your combination and skills or got out of Stock altogether.

Many of the practices we have today had their origin in problems that plagued the sport many years ago. I'm still around to tell you that, if you mess with some of those fixes, you may not like some of the outcomes.

c

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Chris, IHRA tried that a bit back in the 90's, it was met with quite a bit of resistance by a certain group of racers. I'm not smart enough to play the ladder game besides I deck my junk to the finish line thought that's what drag racing was all about. Others may disagree. Joe, Chuck, yes saw this played out many times to counter act this the officials would randomly point the cars to different lanes.... this also caused some hissy fits.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

I remember all that. We also had some that would not pull into the lanes until they thought everybody else was in, trying to get a bye run.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Ok here's a rough draft. Also, remember guys there will be no random pairing and I also believe it will be virtually impossible to play ladder games now because there will be two ladders for first round and then one big ladder for second round to the conclusion. All 3 ladders will be decided by your qualifying passes. The first round ladders will be better known as pairings because they will only be used for first round. They will not continue on because a revised ladder will be constructed for 2nd round on out.

I will use Norwalk as an example. There are 66 cars registered for this race. There are 16 modified/modified stock/mx and there are 50 SS and GT. Although we will all qualify together, the 16 modified cars will be qualifying for a spot on their 16 car sportsman ladder. 1 vs 9, 2 vs 10...8 vs 16. SS/GT will be arranged on another sportsman ladder from 1 to 50 where it would be 1 vs 26, 2 vs 27...25 vs 50.

After first round is completed, a new revised ladder is now constructed by arranging the qualifying times of the 33 cars that advanced to 2nd round. The race continues from there as normal.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

I was not aware that this has been tried before. I am sure it would meet with much resistance if it were tried now as well and it would probably create as many problems as it would solve.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

If it were my call they would be in comp where they belong and leave superstock to real superstockers. I'm sure some will claim lower car counts but I doubt it.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Bobby, There are a few things in your proposal that bear further examination. First by "traditional" you mean what as I see you've added GT cars to this mix...I've never seen a Cobalt in our shop with a V8 in it or with rear wheel drive so I don't see anything traditional about it. This is just my opinion... they are basically modified cars with flat hoods. I'm sure I'll catch heck for that statement but it is simply my opinion. Over the years I've had a hand full of racers sorta look down their noses at my combo, and that's OK they're entitled to their opinion too it's what I have to race. I've really never had anyone tell me they'd prefer not to run their "traditional" SSer against my MX SSer, though they may have been thinking it no one has ever mentioned it to me. I'm all for changes being made as long as they're made in the interest of good sportsmanship racing, not just for the sake of change. Joe

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Harry, please explain. Just hood scoop cars like mine or the V8 powered FWD/ converted to RWD cars? Thanks Joe

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Joe, I definitely agree with you about the Cobalts. I was just thinking that since GT cars have to build their engines to a more regulated spec than the modifieds I put them in with "traditional", though like you said, there is nothing traditional about a 4 cylinder FWD conversion. Make a suggestion. Do you agree with the ladder situation?

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Chuck,

Remember when it was a big deal after all of the hard work and money spent that we could run under the index and not be a first round duck?????

They now use the lowest common denominator plan in which all cars get to compete (under the index) and the next step will be that everybody who shows up to race gets a trophy.....just like "T" ball games.

Bob

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

So it's much easier to make a Mod. car run under the index, takes no work and very inexpensive? Hell that's why I've got one, thanks for clearing that up for me.Now I can make a run then sit in the shade and sip lemonade.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

I've seen dragsters against dragsters and door cars against door cars in big money bracket races for the first few rounds, but generally there isn't a ladder instituated until later rounds in those types of races. I don't see how it could work off an actual qualifying sheet in a class like super stock where everyone is qualifying off an index. I really don't see how its fair to the people running modified style cars either? Being you're from Division 1 too, I'm sure you've watched Peter Biondo, Dan Fletcher, Lincoln Morehead, and numerous other racers win in super stockers that were not in the modified classes.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

just do away with the shoe polish and see what the hot shoes that play the ladder game do,let them become the hunted and not the hunter.That would do away with the phrase I hate to here most (BRACKET MODE)
Dale

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

That was tried back in the '70s. Didn't produce the desired effect then and today it still tops the list as the option most likely to completely kill the eliminator within three years.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Ryan, love the stang. I proposed how the pairings would work for first round based off qualifying off the index. Ladder games would be a thing of the past. Random pairing would never work because people already take forever to come to the lanes. It would just get worse.

What would not be fair to the people running modified style cars? The fact they wouldn't get to chase the class cars who can't afford to build 100k race cars? What is fair about the way it is now? Fletcher does run a modified car. But yes he and the others you've mentioned are great drivers without a doubt.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

By random pairings, I don't mean to call the class then just have everyone come up to the lanes at their own free will. I would propose something like this:

After the first time trial, there would be a good idea of how many cars are there running the eliminator. After the second time trial, as you pass the scales or get your et slip, you can draw a number out of a hat ( with the exclusion of #1-still give the #1 a bye if there is an odd number of cars. Use that number as your qualifying position to set the sportsman ladder just as you would qualifying. That way, cars are still paired up so there are no waiting games and no pitting beside someone you think you can beat.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Mr. Fazio - What you are proposing doesn't make any sense .If there are fifty cars in your eliminator you must be prepared to race any of the other 49 to win .It realy doesn't matter who you race in round one or the final - you must get past all of them at some time . And if you feel you can't win before round one even starts you probably won't . If ladder games are so important you may join in also - if you can't beat 'em - join 'em .From where I sit the big advantage comes from getting or not getting heads-up runs .That stuff about looking for a duck first round - sometimes those quakkers will bite you in the butte .And there are very few that can't run the index today unlike 30 years ago .

As for those who think that racing a modified / non-traditional 160mph S/S 'er is so cheap - jump in and find out for yourself .If its easy you'll be glad ..........

One last thing - if you took all of the Modified / GT type cars out of SuperStock it would be gone ........and quickly .Remember - drag racing is still based on two basic principles - get a light and run the number !

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Fletcher has only been running the modified combo for a few years. Nothing will ever make ladder games go away unless it is all random pairing and I believe a few people posted on the problems that can occur with random pairing. What isn't fair about the way things are now? Are you going to penalize people that have the money to build more expensive cars than you? It seems you have your own agenda going on. When I race stock I chase alot of cars. When I bracket race I spend all day long looking over my shoulder. I don't cry about. I just deal with it and try to get better on the top end every time I do it. I think you need to find a way to race under the current rule structure that I'm sure isn't going to change just because you don't think it's fair.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Jack it seems you misinterpreted the point of my post. I don't know where I said racing a modified/non-traditional 160mph S/S'er is cheap? Also, I separated modified and GT so your last sentence doesn't reflect anything I said. Ladder games - they don't bother me but they seemed to upset a lot of other people so I just showed how it would get rid of them altogether.

If you read my first post I was aiming at increasing parity among the cars in later rounds and make for an exciting first round from a fan standpoint.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Just don't show qualifying sheet til last qualifyer is done....
I know there will be racers with their own helpers in the stands writing the runs down ,but at least they had to work for it..


It is what it is !!!

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

No one wants random pairing so I don't know why people keep bringing it up. Ladder games weren't my primary concern, just an added benefit because they would only help you for one round and you won't know where you will be in 2nd round.

You still haven't told me what is fair about a car with rules and stock components and a car with no rules and far superior aftermarket parts (and a hood scoop) racing each other. I don't know how I'm penalizing anyone? If anything, the class cars are getting penalized no?

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

What class car in SS has "no rules" as you put it? None. What are the Mod cars allowed in the engine that we are not. We all can have aftermarket cranks, rods, pistons, rings, valves, springs, retainers, rockers, pushrods, lifters, cams, timing chains/belts and maybe even blocks. What "stock components are we limited to that the Mod cars are not? Carbs and maybe head castings that we can port now. Some SS cars can even run Alum heads. And now we don't have to run the original carb number. There are also hood scoops in traditional SS.

You ask "what is fair" about running these cars. What is unfair about running them? As Jack said. it still comes down to running the number after cutting a light.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

[QUOTE=Stewart Way; it still comes down to running the number after cutting a light.[/QUOTE]

It sounds like bracket racing to me !

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

also, do away with putting an ET on the scoreboards,2 sided timeslips and all progressive times (just RT, ET and MPH) during Sportsman qualifying.
Wouldn't it be fun to see all of the competitors "racing blind" going into eliminations?

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Sounds good, Billy. While we're at it, eliminate the RT as well. Suddenly, it's 1963 all over again!

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Sorry I wasn't clear. If the engine wasn't available in the body it would be in comp. Hood scoops in comp unless OEM. Just regular SS rules for SS.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Harry, thanks for clearing that up. Boy like someone else stated... you take away the Mod. and GT cars at least from the current mix and you've got a fairly small group of cars. BTW, my hats off to any that have these cars cause they take alot of work money and desire to race. Joe

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

WOW! Your still alive? LOL Whatever happened to the seat in the "Hemi" cars I heard you had?
Betcha dont know who I am ...........LOL

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Actually one of my motives would be to try to make comp more affordable. It still wouldn't be cheap but if you could get your ss/gt/am type of car 1 under you should have a shot in comp.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

I hear this is going to take effect the same week as the new red light rule. LMAO

I don't get what's unfair about racing the hood scoop cars, or the GT cars.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Joespanova
My only guess would be the old 67 Nova 9 Sec stick car Joe. I still work with the Barnetts on the Cudas but right now Frank and Kirk Barnett are the 2 drivers with Terry Earwood getting some seat time. I've done some testing but no races. Building my own Cuda now and yes, it's a stick.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

LOL , You would be correct!
Its a 71 , currently 9 sixties , in good conditions.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Joe
Oldage setting in. I knew it wasn't a 67. Been awhile. Do you still get to Commerce? Last time there right before the Points Meet we hurt an engine. Still down.
Maybe well see you up there.

Re: Just an idea. Don't shoot me Ed
 

Haven't been to Commerce in years.....
Since I moved to McDonough its been Reynolds. Much nicer drive down there also. I only take the car out a few times a year though..........c'mon down some time.
O.P. thanks for sharing your thread.