Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's respons
 

NHRA's staging system malfunctioned in Pomona causing the red light to come on in my lane wihtout the car moving, but luckily someone caught it on tape and posted it to Classracer a little while back. I sent the following e-mail to Division 7 Director Mike Rice last week:

Hi Mike. I have a GT/BA orange Camaro car #7026 and you probably recall the problems we had with the staging lights in round 1 at the Winter Nationals. At the time, the ruling was that I had rocked out of the beams and it was a shallow stage red light. This same issue actually occurred in Vegas as well under virtually identical conditions. Luckily, someone was videotaping the whole thing in Pomona and we can now see exactly what happened.

Here's the link to the video and the run is right at 19:00:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9h_IGDhxxs

If you watch the video you can clearly see what happens. The tree starts to come down, on the second amber BOTH the pre-stage and stage lights go off and the red light comes on. Exactly three seconds later the red light goes off and BOTH the pre-stage and stage lights come back on. It is clear that the car does not move at all and this is why BOTH lights turn back on when the red light goes off. If it did rock out of the beams, it certainly wouldn't have turned off both pre-stage and stage lights. Even if it did somehow rock the 12" or so between the two beams, the two lights would not have turned right back on again after the red light turns off. They should both be out if the car moved and this is clearly not what happened.

Please watch the video and I think you will agree that there was clearly a malfunction in the timing system. NHRA has used videotape in the past to rectify errors where a win was given to the incorrect driver. Let me know once you review and we can discuss options on how to make this right. Thanks.

--Mike Rice then sent the following response:

It is too hard to see in the video. The shallow stage deal is very real, especially without the StageLoc program. The car doesn’t have to move, just the change in tire pressure when on the brake or two step can be enough to rock out of the beams. There is no doubt in my mind that this is what happened to you at Pomona. You may not physically see or feel car move, but the beams are so sensitive that it happens. You are not the first that it has happened too and certainly won’t be the last.

When the system red-lights, it locks our both the pre-stage and stage beams, which is why both go out. When system resets, it allows them to come back on.

Mike

Am I wrong here? Has anyone else experienced this?

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

This actually happens a lot in the Jr Dragster categories. I have been the victim of it a few times, only once in 10 years of bracket racing.

I personally do not agree with the explanation, but I can tell you that the response is going to be the same no matter what. Even on the local track level.

I don't agree, but it is one decision that it as the very least consistently enforced every time I have seen it happen.

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

I agree something happened to cause you to be redlit and you car did not cause it. The top light never flickered or went out. Both stage lights went out. I've never seen them go out and a redlight triggered and then they come back on and the redlight goes out......If you rolled forward it would take a lot of movement before the top light would go out and it could be easily seen on the video......if you rolled backward the top light alone would have flickered or gone out to trigger the red....

The explaination about tire flex is just not very creditable to me.....

Check you car for anything that might be hanging low underneath....

In 1982 or 1983 the Pro Stock title was lost thanks to an un explained NON redlight and the same car did the same thing the following year at Gainseville.....No explaination for that one that made any sense either....

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

U got fahqued with no VASELINE!!!

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

this

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Watch the video again, as soon as the first yellow comes on the photographer
(next to your car) camera's flash goes off. Did the light reflect back off the wheels and cause the redlight?

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

bingo

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Clear as can be, you are dead on !!!!!

Of course the official respone will be "that can't happen" ...... Right....

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Yup, you got screwed! Jim

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Agreed, camera flashed just before redlite came on, you watch , camera man will not be allowed up that far in the future and you will get an apology. LOL

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

LOL @ Billy C'mon Billy. This is the real world........LMAO

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

I've been racing and since before the tracks even had light stand starting systems. But, this is the first time I have ever actually seen what appears to be a redlight caused by
a flash from a camera.

It's probably more accurate to say you had no chance to win in this race rather than the wrong person won. Since you didn't actually go down the track with good numbers from a run it's impossible to say whether you would have won the race or not.

MIke is right about at least one thing for sure. Your pre-stage and stage lights would not have come back on as long as the red light was showing. But, when the starter reset the starters box the red light went out and your tires were blocking both beams and that is why they came back on.

It is unfortunate you suffered a loss in this way. I feel sure no one was out to screw you
over intentionally. And, it is well after the fact that the video surfaced. So, since it could be verified your opponent did nothing wrong the call made on the spot would appear on the surface to be appropriate.

I suppose this could fall into the "racing luck" category. It could have happened to your opponent if he had been in the left lane OR the photographer been in the right lane. NHRA didn't mean for this to happen. And, although the photographer probably
didn't intend for this to happen it was because something he did.

Now I know why a lot of racers have those ugly a## flat black wheels on their cars!

What do you think NHRA should do for you? And, I hope you'll post any new information
about this on the forum.

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Carl, I think comping his entry fee at the next national would be appropriate, don't you?

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

I experienced the same situation in Wyoming in the eightes ,so what i did was ask the starter to get the division director to come down and see if i red light > i would not move or let up on the brake pedal ,Zimmerman came down to the starting line and i ask him to restart the tree which he did and of course it did not show a red light in my lane . i refused to move until a desion was made and the decison was a re run . I basically made and pushed the issue to prove if I moved which after doing a new tree I did not red light FYI

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

I feel for the guy losing that way,but if you start making exceptions for this and that after a while someone will ask for a rerun because he started to sneeze as the tree coming down.You know that feeling just before you sneeze.

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Chad,

I don't think it would be INAPPROPRIATE for NHRA to do this. However, at the risk of pissing off some of my racing photographer friends it would perhaps be more appropriate
for the photographer to pay all of Racin Mason's expenses involved with his participation in this event. The photographer may not have known his flash could have caused a malfunction in the starting system. But, he should have known better than to take a shot
using a flash WHILE the tree was coming down if for no other reason than the possible
distraction for the driver. Of course, the value of all the fun Racin Mason had at the event
should be deducted from whatever payment the photographer would make and he should
give a copy of the photo to him also so we could see it posted on the forum.

This whole deal is very interesting.

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Don,

Now the SAME situation would have been a malfunction caused by the flash of a photographers camera.

I've had the pleasure of talking to "Zim" a few times over the years and I'm surprised
he didn't have your car towed off the starting line with you in it. And, you definitely wouldn't have gotten away with that if Buster Couch had been the starter. You lucked
out getting a rerun on that deal. But, since you didn't say what happened,..... did you
win on the rerun?

In all honesty, Zim restarting the tree and not seeing a redlight didn't prove anything except
your car didn't move out of the beam THAT time.

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

MAN THAT IS JUST IS A BAD DEAL NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK AT IT!

NHRA had plenty of trouble with the 4 wide deal last week.
As well as the deal in pro stock... Jason Line had another bit of trouble in stock.
The dial was changed AFTER the cars were staged.
To top it all off...He had a .007 light!

It amazes
Most cars that pull up to race ( S/C S/G S/ST Etc.) have more technology in them that the starting and timing system has to offer.

DID YOU KNOW
The timing system NHRA uses is a DOS based system
without windows or any modern operating system.
It is slow old and cumbersome.
They need to use 2 systems at once just to keep thing moving along.

hummm...
How much is that "enhanced experience" costing again...
Maybe with all the money the guys are saving by not giving out Wally's for class singels
they can get a better timing system.
Just an idea..

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

"DID YOU KNOW The timing system NHRA uses is a DOS based system
without windows or any modern operating system. It is slow old and cumbersome.
They need to use 2 systems at once just to keep thing moving along."

Hey, Hey! HEY! On behalf of all things slow, old and cumbesome I resemble
that remark!

Oh heck,... all in all the timing system works pretty well. We win by it and we lose by it. Doesn't seem like Biondo, Fletcher or Rampy have much trouble with it. LOL

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Carl : You are correct Zimm had the tree come down two times to see if i red light and i did not move i even offered to move my car a little forward to see when the tree came down i would red light . I did win the rerun . this was at the track in wyoming where the track is in the middle of town a cool place to race

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Wonder why Jeff Foster hasn't offered any insite into this.
You are right about the technology level, but mabe thats a good thing considering the skill level of the guy who "throws the switch" at National events.

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Amen!!!

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

You have been NHRA enhanced .... free entry to the next National event is the right thing to do ..

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Something like this happened to me at the gators about 10 years ago in the 4th round.I footbrake and push my car against converter to stage .i dont bump in .as my lite came down it redlit me. they said when i staged it was so shallow that my car backed upagainst the converter bull ****

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Don it was Douglas WY. Cool track and always a fun race.

People, I was there watching Don's run, and he's correct -- the car never moved, not even a little bit, and he wasn't shallow-staged. Sometimes things just happen.

For instance, the red and green can't both come on at the same time. Yet (hadtobethere can verify it), it happened to me in time trials at Cordova. I asked the head of staging whether it would be considered a red or a green, and he said it didn't happen -- I was dreaming. So on the next time trial, it happened again and he was watching. Now I know that's supposed to be impossible, but it did occur on two consecutive runs. The staging directors response after the run was, "We'd consider it a red-light since the red light was on". I said I'd consider it a green-light since the green was on. But that was 1978, and I've never seen it since.

ZK, rest his soul, got screwed at Brainerd with a .503 light (.500 perfect at the time) but the red came on. They wouldn't let him re-run it, but Buster did apologize to him later in the day saying that he screwed up and it should have been a re-run.

Then there's the Winternationals NATIONAL DRAGSTER Sportsman coverage issue of 1989 or '90 with the picture of Gene B's Nova leaving the line first with both wheels dangling two feet in the air and the last amber still on. This was the final which he won, but the light should have been SOOOOOO RED. Why wasn't it?

Life goes on!

Jerry

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

How the hell does a car "back up against the converter?". Sometimes I wonder.......

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Really!

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

The technical prowess of some of the higher-ups baffles me sometimes. He probably said it with a straight face also! Jim

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

and probably believed what he was saying

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Check out my findings under the post: Red Light Answer

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Re: "Backing up against the converter"
Obviously a car will not back up against the converter, but I have seen a car rock a couple inches by varying the rpm with the front tires locked. Not impossible to imagine linelock the front and bring up the rpm to flex/push/etc into the lights. Then rpm drops and the car flexes back. Not saying this happened, just saying, never say never.

In '88 or '89 I won a bracket race with a green light.....and a .499 light. The other guy came back yelling but was told the computor rounds up to the nearest 10th or something like that. He accepted it and I went on to runner up. ($200.00 if I remember right)
I thought it was strange but wasn't going to argue.


I think the adage "that's racing" applies here.
Treat it as a learning experience and paint the front rims flat black.

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

I just love the reply that it was your car's fault! I want to see just once, an NHRA official admit they, or their equipment, were at fault! But, I might as well wish in one hand and ***** in the other!

I wonder if these officials actually believe some of the bs they feed us??

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

I think Mike Gray nailed it with the call on the camera flash. I emailed the division director asking him to take another look now that we had more insight into what might have really happened. Believe it or not, he has not responded.

Does anyone have any contact information for Rick Stewart, someone at Compulink or anyone else who might actually give a s#*t that their timing system has a flaw that needs to be addressed? NHRA has already been so embarrassed by things like the pro stock bike final round that was overturned with video evidence, the Mike Edwards delay in the start of the tree during the first round in Gainesville and then the 4-wide tree mess last weekend that you would think someone who cares might want to take some initiative here.

I am guessing here that the laser receptacle reacted to the camera flash as if the beam was re-established and that caused the red light to come on. If this is the case, then if they just flipped the beams so that the laser receptacle is on the side closest to the tree and the laser is generated on the outside of the lane, this would never happen again. Simple solution really. They just have to recognize there's a problem and that is the hard part...

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...lsRedlight.jpg


I can see how the flash angle could easily trick the system......

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Not sure I have it right (see comments under thread "Red Light Answer")
Pat Joffrion explains the staging system.
At his track the beam is generated on the inside, I assume Pomona and other tracks are the same.

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Pat stated "the sensor for the light is on the inside. He felt the flash had no effect being from the outside.

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Sounds like B.S. to me, what they told ya!

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Way back in the 70s W.A. Lee told me in person that he thought NHRA was fixing races. I have no proof one way or the other.

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Sounds like something Art would say.

Re: Staging light error caught on film & Div. Director's res
 

Its true.....NHRA wanted the T/AD ( Billy Williams) to take the win for the Grace cup and he had to run Cal Q.3 times. NHRA didnt like that to much when a lowly stocker won. .