How would you fix the ahfs
 

1. Look at the weight of the cars at the scales and use 100 lbs heavy = .1 subtracted from run, 80 lbs .08 subtracted from run.

2. Use 1/8 mile info E.T. and MPH to help stop the sandbaging

3. Two hits of -1.00 under, automatic hp on Monday, the average just does not work. I.e. 396 /375

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

1)Wrong........That means you'll be penalized for not weighing exactly your minimum.What do you do about scale fluctuations.I always try to be about 30 # over to make up for scale error.So I get penalized for not taking a chance of scaling light?Think you can get through a race weighing at minimum without being bounced for being light?

2)Wrong.......I'm not a rocket scientist but there is no firm formula for a cars performance at the 1/8th mile.

3)I'm not sure of that.

Larry you need better arguments for the inequities in the AHFS.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

I think this AHFS need to not be computer driven... I think weather conditions/track conditions need to come into affect. Also I think if someone runs quick enough to get Hp # 1) take them apart to make sure their legal & 2) hit just that car.... as in if it's an 80 Corvette that get's it hit don't hit everything with just that piston in it! ( read 73-81 350 dish motors) We all know these new cars are fast.....But I think if we leave them run they will beat each other up soon ....just like the LT1 & LS F body cars. ( they may have put FI & Carb cars back together to soon?)

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Use common sense to fix underrated combos

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Let's try this idea.

If an engine combination hits the -1.20 or more under the index twice during a season, NHRA shall then have the right to set the refactored horsepower on that engine combination anywhere it deems necessary.

Example...the 1st time engine XYZ is rated at 345 and goes -1.22, it gets 12 horsepower making it 357. Two weeks later it goes -1.25 under. It is clear after the 2nd time that the horsepower is still wrong. NHRA calculates that the horsepower needs to be at 400 and refactors it there. This would eliminate any lengthy time span in getting the horsepower corrected.

Travis Miller

(Disclaimer; Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Hi Guys,

I vote for putting all the combos Back to the factory HP ratings...lol

Imagine 66-67 327 275/275 etc.... and let the AHFS fix it!

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

1) It is completely possiable to have a weather station at each tech trailer that monotors the weather and factors the given weather back to a standard. Example, STP, standard temp, pressure etc. There could be a correction factor at the end of every qualifying round and that is the number to "correct" the times back to the standard. This would take into account all weathers and elevations.

2) Factor new cars and older ones that have been intruduced into the book fairly. Get a rear wheel HP something, if you have nothing to go by. Look at the entire engine specs.

3) All cars that run fast enough to receive a factor shall be tore down. It does not matter if they pass the scales, fail fuel check or what ever they have to be tore down to be determined legal for the factor. Then if they are found to be illegal then they will be penalized...

To me it is real simple.. Hire the personell, give them the equipment and go to it.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

I guess ole Larry thinks the 396 isn't fair because it carries 45 less cubic inches, two less barrels and 15 more Hp than his car. He believes it needs more because a few people out of the many have been fast. News Flash! Not everyone with one is flyin, and the two times it went under a second this year have been at a factored track and in very unusual weather conditions in Houston. It was like 65 degrees with a huge tail wind. Talk about a self serving agenda hidden under the guidlelines of "fixing" the AHFS.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Do not publish the triggers so that we can manipulate it.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Larry's #1 isn't acrurate. 100lb is not 1/10th on all cars. The more power you make, the less effect it has. Mine, 100 lbs = no more than .08. Higher hp cars is less. Might help, but won't be enough. Probably not .05 with the new Mustangs. Good friend of mine is crew chief on a SBC Comp car, they juggle weight to change classes. He says with their car 100 lbs is five hundredths.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

I agree, seems like 100lbs =.10 works at about J,K,L. Anything higher is less, anything lower is more. In my V car, 100 lbs is .22!

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Can anyone tell me what the proceedure is for asking for a HP reduction for a certian combo? Send a letter? Send an e-mail? Who does it get sent to?

Thanks

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Travis; Forget the new stuff. That sort of thing has not done anything for the combos that have been out of line for years. Several things will not change. 1. We as racers are better at getting away with stuff than NHRA is a catching us. 2. Some racers are a whole lot better than other racers. 3. All the rules and ahfs are like IRS regs, we seem to stay just on the inside of them, but that is what is required. 4. When the Bowties are not the cream of the crop, the owners of those Bowties deem that unacceptable, and complain. Something new: Make new classes at the top for the new cars to expand. Lots of people like the new cars. Everyone can't race a 67 Camaro

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

I think they should have a common sence look at the H.P. numbers once a year. And adjustments made that are needed. Most of us know what combo's need H.P. added. Also they should be aware of mine shaft conditions, where people run there best do to extreamly good air. As far as weight goes, its to easy to slow cars down without adding weight. Put some extra oil in or retard the timing. Shift early and on and on...... Gary

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

buy a bass boat, go fishing, see if they miss you, lol.

Joe B

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

I've posted this before.

1. A set of certified matching weather stations should be issued to each division, and calibrated regularly.

2. A set of conditions that represent a "standard day", such as those used by the Society of Automotive Engineers should be approved. Something such as 70 degrees F, 29.9" of BP, and 20% RH.

3. A weather reading should be taken and recorded at the beginning and the end of every session for Stock Eliminator and for Super Stock.

4. Those conditions should be averaged and entered into a database.

5. The complete run, with all incrementals, for each car, in each session, should be entered into the same database. Weight of the car, as compared to the legal minimum for that car, could be entered as well. Provided the scales are certified.

6. A relatively simple Statistical Process Control program should be written, and the database listed above should feed all data into the SPC program. It would include a standard accepted weather correction factor, such as those used on engine dynamometers, in order to correct the data to the accepted "standard day".

7. A set of standards for performance would be established as acceptable. As an example, let's say that your ideal standard is that any given combination should average no more than 1.0 seconds under the index. By the same token, you'd also want to establish a minimum of say 0.300 under the index.

8. Properly written and implemented, the database and SPC program will automatically yield factual data, and could easily provide the correct adjustment required to bring any combination in line.

9. The class program itself would need to be changed in order to create an incentive for racers to work on their combination to get it to perform, and then to use the performance. For example, class eliminations at as many events as possible, replacing all but one qualifying session. So there would be a single qualifying session at each race, the next round of qualifying would actually be the first round of class eliminations, so that each racer gets one shot in each lane, even if they lose in the 1st round of class. Class needs to pay at least a small amount of money, and points. Not a lot of points, maybe something equal to a round win in a 64 car field. The top ten qualifying positions should at least pay points as well, say 20 points for number one, and two points less for each lower position.

10. Racers will always make some sort of attempt to "game the system", but if the system is put together well, and the racers are given incentives not to game the system, it can be minimized so that the system could work much better than what we have now.

* Any car triggering an instant HP hit, and instant hits would remain in place and in force, would be subject to a complete "national record" level tear down. Any racer who triggers a hit and does not tear down is suspended and fined.


Yes, it seems like a lot when you read it. However, if you think it through carefully, there is not a requirement for a large cash outlay, nor a large amount of labor. You're only adding the recording of the weather conditions and possibly the weight. A person assisting the starter could take the weather recording, or the starter himself could do it while they take the usual short break between classes. If you were to record the weight, then you'd have to have someone at the scales to enter the data. The database and the SPC software will run themselves, no human input is really necessary, other than to check to see that the data is being recorded. A certain amount of "labor" and "human input" would actually be eliminated.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

X 2 If enough would do this NHRA would miss the $$$$$$$ Not the racers.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Mike, The way it has been done in the past is to write a letter (I guess an email would work) to the Horsepower Committee and present your reasons for a HP reduction. Include examples and detailed information. I have done this twice and got HP off once. The other time I never heard a thing back from them. Bill Holt used to be on the Committee but I'm not sure who is on it now. The Division office should be able to help you with that info. If I can help you please email or call me. Jim:D

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Thanks Jim.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Many racers pointed out when the ahfs was implemented that it would never work because the racers could control when they receive horsepower especially the ones with rare combos. The more of a type of combo the more likely someone will mess up and cause horsepower. Some combos have done an excellent job of maintaining their averages and fast runs therefore even though they were fast before ahfs they are still fast. AHFS will never work like it was touted but then nothing tried so far has worked to everyones satisfaction. The changes made for 2011 have only tied everyones hands so that no one can run all out. I don't think that any modification to the current system will fix it. It was flawed from the beginning. However because no system will suit everyone it's just as good as anything that I have heard seen so far.
I think that most everyone likes the new combos and believe that they help improve stock racing but until they are placed into their own class or their horsepower numbers are fairly adjusted they remain a sore spot for many racers. As we are seeing it will take far too long for the AHFS to balance the playing field and it's only made worse by introducing new combos every so often. Our options remain live with the current situation or go play golf(or go fishing, or etc.)

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Bill "Farmer" Dismuke would have already fixed it.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Travis this would never work. You would have the same people doing the refiguring that looked at a 300hp factory rated motor added a bigger throttle body ported heads and rated it at 235hp. Do you really think they are going to fix any thing?

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

:rolleyes:There is only one way to fix the problem and that is to put the right man in charge . The man for the job would be the one who has all the runs and times .Now there is only one man I can think of and that would be Nitro Joe .Nitro Joe seems to have all of the runs and times from all of the races . Just check out his Stat Book and see. Nitro Joe has been doing this for a long time and who do you think did it for NHRA before now ,Thats Right it was Nitro Joe .I think some one in NHRA either had it in for him or they thought they could do a better job . WELL LOOK THEY ARE NOT just my too cents ;)

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

He sure would.........

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Nitro Joe gets the info directly from NHRA.

In the past it was Wesley who kept all the data straight. That is until NHRA decided someone else could do it cheaper in-house.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Actually, until the advent of the new cars, for the most part it was Wesley Roberson and Bob Lange who took care of the AHFS. I don't think Wesley or Bob would have signed off on the new cars, and I don't think their being removed at that time was just a coincidence.

Stocker 2 was a little quicker on the tree than I was. No surprise there.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Hey Clutch I was just thinking about how heavy you say you run your car, just off the top of my head I'd say that you're carrying too much weight, maybe almost 400 pounds with steel head or 300 pounds with aluminum head, IMAGINE that, how much faster you could be!!! OH you want to know about weighing 4000 lbs look me up I'll tell you all about it, oh ya don't get caught at the scale weighing that, they may bump you down a class.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

I kind of missed it but is the rule about weighing heavy into the next class down puts you into that class being enforced this year?

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Hope so.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

I know of one racer that had to remove weight at Atco this past weekend. NHRA Tech also logged each car with number, class, factored hp, & weight into a data base.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

So you are saying that with an amendment to the AHFS rules and given the chance to correct proven under-rated horsepowers, they would not do so?

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Travis they can do whatever they want when they want to.
The ahfs was in effect and it was only "supposed" to count national events. Not points meets or records. I got enhanced 8.25% (at one time) And nobody with my combo ever even tripped the trigger for their ahfs. I just hurt the ego's of some of their fair haired boys.
A lot of people are saying "they can't". Well in my case they could and did.
They won't because they don't want to anger the factories not because they can't.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Hey Hagen you must be a friend of Larry's otherwise I don't think you'd be calling him OLD, not sure what you are trying to say 44 less cubes two less barrels and carry 15 more HP, I bet Larry would love to bolt on a set of your heads and intake & carb, and I'll put money down that he gains at least 20 and in some cases 30 more HP and we won't talk about the after market goodies. Gary that sixpak doesn't perform as well as you may think and the 906 heads are a far cry if compared to the heads OEM or even better after market you have to work with, and this is why you only have a handful of people running the sixpack combo.If your comparing apples to apples, DON'T because a 396/375 can and will make more power, and I would guesstimate at least 20 more HP and that's conservative!!!SHOW ME A SIXPAK THAT CAN RUN IN THE 9's??? Last I looked the 396 w/steel head factor was 399 and w/aluminum 405, and Larry's sixpak factor is 405 don't see the difference, now if you want to compare that same combo in a B-body I'm factored @ 417 so stop teasing us! ? ! ? ! ? . . .

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

When I propose that an engine get its horsepower really corrected after it hits the -1.20 under twice in a season, I am not only talking about new cars but also the older ones that continuely take hit after hit, year after year and still remain way under-rated. Everyone knows which engines need a true correction, both old and new.

My comments on things that you say will not change;

1. Tech can catch those things, getting it to stick is a different story.

2. I agree that some racers are a whole lot better than others. Some also have deeper pockets than most.

3. Staying just inside the rules is a part of human nature. Sometimes rules need to be changed but for some reason never do.

4. That is an argument that will always remain between Chevy, Ford, and Mopars owners.

New classes needed? I agree. I personally do not like to see the extremely fast cars running against other stockers. But that also includes older factory racecars that were once ruled S/S only.

Travis Miller

(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Good deal!

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Ole is a figure of speech that I believe is used to say "Look at this Guy". Not old. If I wanted to call Larry old, I would have used the word, Old. Also, if someone went fast enough to get your same engine 12 more hp in your car, should it not be just as fast in a smaller car with a shorter wheelbase and a 150 lb less shipping wt? Which is it, Is it fast enough to get hp or is nobody running one because they can’t make them work? I did go off of the 390 factor, and just realized that is the Stick version, so your right it’s at 405 in auto. So how did it get to 405 in auto, but stay 390 in stick? I really have no clue, but I can only assume somebody went fast with one.

Larry decided to call out a combo that in no way needs more Hp, and did it under the guidelines of fixing the ahfs. There are about 150 other combo's out there that need it before this one, but he chose the 396 because it barely went over a second under in two very rare and unfair circumstances by two really, really fast 396's. He did it only because it’s self serving. If he is going to uselessly call out a combo, I'm going to call him on it. Sorry?

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

That is exactly what I am saying. If they did it right they would piss off the factories and they are not going to do that. There is no reason they could not have got it right the first time on the factory cars. There are people within the NHRA that know what they are doing. They just don't let them.

How many old combos could you pick up and run 1.7 under first time out with out alot of R and D none. Other than maybe some oddball that slipped thru the cracks.

But if the factory racers could only run the index out of the box and need tweeking to go fast people wouldnt be spending $100,000 to buy one. For $100,000 they want runaway in a heads up fast out of the box.

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Gary OK so we do agree on one thing that Larry isn't old, tall maybe but not old!!! The difference in factored HP is because I can only think of one guy out in div#7 I think his name is Watts running a stick, so that combo hasn't really been flogged like the automatics have.I never said that your combo needed a hit, but I would love it if they dropped me some.I run enough of you [guys/396/375] and know that I don't have enough of JUNK under my hood!!!

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

what other engines can go in your cars besides the 440 6 pack? Fletcher changed engines in his stocker , so couldn't you guys do the same?

Re: How would you fix the ahfs
 

Right, just go out and buy/build another engine..... $$$$$$$