Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

I'm not sure how many people are aware of this but there are some engine builders out there requesting to have titanium valves legalized in Super Stock.

How do the rest of you feel about this? I think it ruins everything Super Stock is about. If you want titanium valves go to a different class.

Here is the letter we wrote to NHRA to have this stopped. If you agree and also want to protect the originality of Super Stock, please write NHRA more letters.


September 9, 2010

Bob Lang, Director
366 Easton Road
Warrington, PA 18976
Ph: (215) 343-2558
Fax (215) 343-0159
blang@nhra.com

Dear Bob,
While I was in Indianapolis for the NHRA US Nationals I was told by reliable sources within the NHRA organization, that a few racers and engine builders are requesting that Titanium valves be made legal in Super Stock eliminator. I would like to go on the record as being strenuously opposed to a change in the rule regarding valve material in SS Eliminator. We need to maintain some degree of integrity with the original engines that the SS classes are based on. Let’s remember that this isn’t Comp, or Pro Stock and there is no need to unnecessarily increase the cost to the competitors, any further. Currently our legal, custom made, Stainless Steel valves are approximately $25 each. Titanium valves for a Hemi® that have all the “bells and whistles” are at least $145 each. When you multiply this by sixteen it raises the cost of the engine by $1,920, without spares! This added expense is totally uncalled for!
I have about twenty SS/AH customers and collectively we have not broken a valve in 6 years, even though some of them run up to 9800 RPM. If other Super Stockers are having valve problems, the proper response from the Tech Department should be that they need to fix their valve train, redesign their camshaft, or operate at a lower RPM range. I have asked all of my customers for their opinion, and no one wants to see this change made to the rules. If we legislate away the current problem for the complaining parties, instead of forcing them to improve their combination, it will only be a short time until they reach the next “stumbling block” and request another rules change.
Sincerely,
Ray Barton

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Great letter, but I have to say that 9,800 RPM on one of those motors is very impressive! Again, wow!



Don

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Here we go again. Clutchless trans, titanium valves, etc Comp here we come.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

As I recall, the only time NHRA allowed Titanium Valves to be used in a SS engine was in some specific Ford 427 engines as a replacement to the Sodium filled OEM valves.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

David, I agree this would not be a good rule change. What's next?

Shawn 6383

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

There is a proposal for Titanium valves in SS. I think most engine builders are in agreement. But the jury is still in the room. And Ed, I don't think we are heading for Comp, but Comp may be heading for us. Same boat, different rudder. Now you gotta admit, that is pretty good.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Correct !

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

The GM engines Z06 in 2008 & 2009 Have Titanium Intake Valves, Hollow stem Exhaust, Titanium Rods and CNC ported heads since 2008.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Yes but how many have you seen running S/S ? LOL

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

i'm just waiting on my powerball numbers to hit.................

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Keep in mind when a Ti valve breaks the carnage can be twice as bad. Maybe that's why the engine builders want it?

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

I am for them in both super stock and stock(Jr Super Stock), It is a choice, no one is making a person us them if they do not want to.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Already allowed in many S/S classes. SS/AS, SS/BS, SS/CS. Probably others. Dyno

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Im sure the post was about S/S cars classed by HP factors and not Cu. inches. Those are really modified cars !

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Exhaust only or intake too? BTW, other OEM valves have hollow stems too. You should see the hollow intake valve heads that are lazer welded together, neat stuff.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Jr. Super Stockers.......LOL.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Chris,

At the time the rule was implemented for the Ford 427, there were no other OEM applications with Sodium Filled valves.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

ZERO but the NHRA wizards were not aware of this till late last year. They had no idea on what was in those engines.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Terry that is what they are in 2010. Should go a little farther with the rules. Same as S/S except for 9 " tires, stock manifolds and stock valve lift.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

"STOCK" manifold's...........LOL. I have some water front property for sale in Arizona if your interested !

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

A few years ago I spoke to Mr. Lang about allowing head studs in Stock Eliminator, he responded by saying that they would increase the cost of building a racecar. The difference between head bolts and head studs is about $40

I responded that by using head studs, the frequent replacement of blocks due to pulled threads from stripped head bolt holes could be reduced.

My request fell on deaf ears.....but in NHRA's world it would make sense to allow Ti valves in Super Stock

Once it became optional, it would become mandatory due to a performance increase

Go figure

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Terry: ok stock appearing intake manifolds

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

OK.....LOL. We ALL know whats going on. I wish Jr. stock had never died. It was fun, inexpensive, and just as competitive. HISTORY !

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Yeah, we need $60 a piece valves, and another 1000 RPM, added to a class that hasn't seen a purse increase in a decade, and has seen the contingency payout drop by around 50% in the last 2 years. :rolleyes:

It's time we stopped the frikkin escalation in the sportsman classes. It has long since gotten way out of control, with stuff we don't need that has only made the racing way too expensive, and hasn't improved anything. As a long time Super Stock racer said a while back when I was in his shop, "The sorry SOB that gave the okay for ported and polished heads in Super Stock ought to have them all stuck where the sun never shines".

And yes, we're going Super Stock racing. The car should be on the track in 3-4 weeks or so. :cool:

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Geez, the damn bitchen that goes on, maybe stock should mean real stock, as in pure stock.You know, pure stock as Terry wrote the rules for. Then maybe the average guy could afford it. Or as NHRA says " Entry Level" Just my 02 Pat.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Nitrous oxide!

M68 :)

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Those are pseudo-S/S classes.

M68

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Why have rules,let it all hang out and lets see who is really fast.Not much stock left in Stock or super stock

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

titanium valves WTF, Where the hell does this stop? Chamber mods, aftermarket cranks, etc etc. Why change the rules to accomodate those that do not follow them [ cheaters]. Titanium valves are already in use like the cranks and chamber mods were before becoming legal to do so. Throw the cheaters out rather than change the rules for them. Why stick it in everyones ***** that does the right thing. NO TITANIUM VALVES ! This is SUPERSTOCK not prostock. Oh but we need change, look where our change is gettin us. Leave the rules as they were written.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

I cant stand it anymore
The simple solution is to implement the valve spring rule-period! Stock spring pressure. There would be no 9800 rpm hemis or 9800 rpm anything else. IMO this was the downfall of stock. Lower rpm no acid heads or manifolds needed. No $1000 lifters no $7500 heads. Wouldnt matter cause they cant flow at lower rpm. Just my 2 cents

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

I thought the allowance of going to Honda/IRL rod journals in SS was stupid. This sounds like the rich racers putting the class out of reach for most people. NHRA must want to get the SS fields down to a pair of megabuck cars. Why bother to tech them at all? Just P&G one cylinder and wave it through. I would like to see fiberglass replacements for the aluminum front end cars as a cost savings. Cost saving measures would be nice rather than cost escalation.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Check out Pure Stock rules . Terrey wrote em. End of bull ****, period. PatSTK6868

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

We are all entitled to our opinions but in my opinion, all materials should be as per OEM in both stock and SS. That should include cylinder heads and any other items affecting performance. The only exceptions I would consider would be rods and cranks, replacing iron items with steel (of equal weight) does help reduce oil downs.

Jim Mantle V/SA 6632

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Brought to you by the same "group" that got worked over combustion chambers thru tech and then got them made "legal". Apparantly can't run legally with the fast stuff. By the way, this won't be the first time a engine has passed tech with titanium valves which were switched right in front of techs eyes. To prevent it, just check the guy with the shop towel wiping down the valves.

Oh, and for the record I am against allowing titanium. They are light, they are tough, but they are unforgiving as Jeff said. Also need replacement frequently if they are the high dollar ones.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Jess...glad to see your still alive! FYI - the talk is Ti valves in Super Stock, not Stock (for now).

I recently held a 427 / 425 HP Ford intake valve from an old Hollman-Moody engine built in 1967 or so (the fishing boat engine I brought up on this forum). When disassembling the heads the head on an intake vale broke off. The dang thing was rifle drilled in the stem! Couldn't believe how light it was and it was a pretty large diameter valve. Now I know the exhaust are sodium filled on this engine but I didn't know they were doing this to intake valves back in the '60's.

I'd have to say I'm with SS Engine guy and others on this. Based on my limited experience, I can't see the need. Sure it may be faster but I see no other benefit. Cost goes up, maintenance and replacement goes up and engine damage can be a real issue if one breaks.
I lost two Stocker engines thanks to Mr. Schubeck, don't think I would want to go down this road.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

This craziness has to stop.

At the end, it is not worth the extreme cost for marginal gains.
First, unless they are Physical Vapor Deposition or Chromium Nitride coated, Titanium valves will wear at a faster rate than a SS valve.

Although they have OEM applications such as the Corvette and many motorcycles makes, the valves they use are coated and they use valve seats with a higher Copper contents. Which means, if they are allowed, all seats will need to be replaced with a seat with a higher Copper contents.

When NHRA allowed the use of Titanium valves on the 427 Fords, is due to the fact that at the time it was difficult to obtain hollow stem valves. Weight wise, the Titanium and hollow-stem valves are the same. Also, due to valve train dynamics, the RPM gains are not as much as many may believe.

Today, you can buy good hollow stem SS valves from companies such as Ferrea.
It also makes me wonder how many racers out there are using them.

If the rule change is approved, I can see racers, later on, asking the valve stem size rule be deleted so they can run 7mm valve stems.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

They are talking about Superstock which has never had to use stock valve springs.
If you went back to the stock spring pressure in stock an awful lot of cars would slow down a bunch. And a lot of camshafts would become short pool cues.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Which means, if they are allowed, all seats will need to be replaced with a seat with a higher Copper contents.

This is not true I have been using ti valves since 1969 they was on Ford cast iron heads with no seat inserts the seat were not even Induction hardened at that time (they were released by Ford then for use in Tran's Am Boss 302 and 351 C), we used the first as Intakes as there was no Ti for Exhaust, it would not work according to TRW who was the first to supply. I have run the intakes till the margin was thin and started to chip (small V shapped cracks) we then took these valves and turned them down and made exhaust with a much thicker margin and lasted another couple years.

I WOULD NOT be in favor of the change!

Just trying to set the record straight.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

If any one has the chance to buy New old stock the exhaust sodium filled pass on them as the sodium reacts to the steel and eats away from the inside out.


I recently held a 427 / 425 HP Ford intake valve from an old Hollman-Moody engine built in 1967 or so (the fishing boat engine I brought up on this forum). When disassembling the heads the head on an intake vale broke off. The dang thing was rifle drilled in the stem! Couldn't believe how light it was and it was a pretty large diameter valve. Now I know the exhaust are sodium filled on this engine but I didn't know they were doing this to intake valves back in the '60's.

I'd have to say I'm with SS Engine guy and others on this. Based on my limited experience, I can't see the need. Sure it may be faster but I see no other benefit. Cost goes up, maintenance and replacement goes up and engine damage can be a real issue if one breaks.
I lost two Stocker engines thanks to Mr. Schubeck, don't think I would want to go down this road.[/QUOTE]

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Ralph, then we will have to disagree.

For longevity, it is a known fact that you should change the seat material when using Ti valves.

Beryllium bronze seats, which is a Copper-based alloy is used for most applications because is softer and won't wear the Titanium as fast.

You may have got away with the standard seat because in the earlier heads due to the availability of Lead in gasoline. Therefore, OEM's got away with softer seats in cylinder heads.

According to an SAE paper that was written by Chevy engineers as realted to the developemnt of the 'Vette engine, they used a seat alloy called PMF-28.

Here is a great informative article as regards to the use of Ti valves:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...lications.aspx