A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Yesterday my son Andrew and I were at my shop getting his car ready to go to Bowling Green today and he reminded me that his seat was loose. After we got every thing else done I felt of his seat and sure enough it was flopping around like you wouldn't believe. I had Andrew to remove the seat so we could take a look. The main reason for the looseness was that the seat tracks were worn out, although that wasn't the only thing. The catch that holds the seat back in place and keeps it from going forward had two or three inches play in it. We worked on the seat tracks and were able to engineer a half *** fix, but it's far from right and the seat back still has all the slop in it.

It's extremely hard to find 70-73 seat tracks and seats that are not worn out. You can cover them and make them look good, but how about the integrity of the seat and tracks themselves. I would propose aftermarket seats approved by NHRA and IHRA for stock that closely resemble the old musclecar seats. A company that I am familiar with is Procar which are sold by Jeg's and Summit. These seats may be a little lighter but they are much better as far as integrity goes. They are welded tubular steel frames and have seat tracks that are tight and have locks on both sides. I am not advocating Kirkey seats or light weight plastic racing seats but something that looks original but is much safer. I know this subject has been talked about on here before but I really feel this is a safety issue and not a performance one.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Greg, I agree 100%. I think if you are going to allow aftermarket seats you may as well allow Kirkey's and just make the upholstery match. the Procar's aren't a racing seat, and if we are going to go aftermarket let's go for as much safety as possible.

And before anyone jumps on the "stock appearing bandwagon" too much, stop and think. Roll bars don't look stock, neither do $500 a piece front wheels showing off the lightweight front brakes, and the wheelie bars certainly give things away as well. Most of the above mentioned was done for safety, and its time us as drag racers joined the rest of the racing community in having safe seats. Hell the SCCA allows race seats in the their stockest, slowest of autocross classes ( and we're talking 50mph here). The weight savings is, in most cases, pretty much a non issue as most cars have lead in them anyways.

This is just my opinion, and has been for quite some time now. I'm sure anyone who has crashed a stocker would probably agree

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I would like to add that I used to own a 1968 Mustang in the mid 70's and it had a recall back then for the pin that holds the back of the seat on. My father helped me fix it even though the factory had a plan, but this goes to show that factory seats cannot be dependable for safety.

NHRA does need to address SAFETY first in many things today it seems.

Just my thoughts only.

Steve

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I think this is a good topic. We had to weld extra stuff into our old bench seat and I hate adding any weight! I was just concerned that it wouldn't hang together if there was a problem on track like a crash etc.

You don't see too many stockers pile up, but a loose seat can turn an easy crash into a tragedy.

I agree there should be some guidance here from NHRA that offers stock appearing seats with safety in mind. If they don't we will have uncovered Jaz and Kirkey seats in there.

I would think that there could be a workable alternative.

I was in Bowling Green a few years back when Fuller and Beeler crashed. I put a fuel cell in after that and was really wishing for a better seat too. 115 mph doesn't seem fast until you start bouncing updside down.

Of course we have 140+ mph stockers now!

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Greg I agree and Chad I also agree, Kirkey would be my choice. Like you Chad, I'm going pretty fast mph and would like to know my seat will not come apart if I get in a bad wreck.

Like Chad said, when it comes to safety there is very little left on our cars that are stock. I think NHRA needs to give us the option if we want a little more safety, not make mandatory, just an option.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I would go for after market seats for safety. Hell half the cars don't have the right seat in them anyway. Year's a go I was the local tech inspector at our track. One of the car's that used to show up was built buy the rule book. Bolted down seat tracks,back of the seat bolted to the roll bar it was a nice car. Well one another car got out of shape one day and clipped the this car. Well it barrel rolled right down the center of the track. When I got to the car it was on laying on the passenger side door. I climbed up and opened the driver side door and to my surprise no driver. I 'm thinking wtf and then I hear some one telling me I'm in the back. Well the seat had come apart while it was rolling down the track. The funny thing was the 5-way was still latched together. The bad thing was it hurt the guy pretty bad. Well the next year the guy had a new car with aftermarket seats in it. I asked him why he didn't put them in his old car, his reply was I wanted it to look stock.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Although anticdotal evidence, that's been my point for 4 years. Late model seats aren't designed for the speeds and forces involved with a crash on a race track, much less 40 yr old seats that came from who knows where and went through who knows what before they got new cushions and covers and wound up in someone's racecar

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I know that my opinion dosen't count for much anymore, but Greg will remember 2 years ago we tried to get NHRA to allow aftermarket seats and they slapped us on the wrist and said no way, forget that. Well i am still saying, Stock needs those seats, we are where SuperStock was when they allowed them to be used. I agree, don't make it Manditory but if a racer wants them, so be it. Thats my 2 cents!

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Woodro, your opinion might not mean much to NHRA, but it carries as much weight with the racers as anyone's opinion does.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

X10...... Woodro is THE MAN! Jim

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Thanks Guys,,,,,,,Anybody got any word on our div 2 leader not trying to change the subject here!

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I'm glad there are some other racers that feel as I do about seats. If roll cages are acceptable as a safety device, why not a genuine racing seat to complete the package?

The following is an e-mail I sent to the NHRA Rules committee on 11/30/09.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gentlemen,

The rules regarding accepted seats for Stock Eliminator reflect a substantial inconsistency in application from a safety perspective. For example, Super Stock cars are allowed to use "aftermarket seats" with a roll cage. Rules regarding Stock Eliminator state "Must have... factory-type... front and rear seats." As you're aware, Stock class cars are often as quick and fast as Super Stock cars.

It appears that the rules allow "automotive accessory seats" or "aftermarket seats" in all categories (i.e. E.T.), regardless of speed or elapsed time, except Stock Eliminator. That really betrays the idea of a universal approach to safety.

At least two things could be accomplished by NHRA accepting aftermarket seats for use in Stock Eliminator: 1) Present an opportunity to improve safety 2) Eliminate interpretation of rules governing Stock Eliminator, either by competitors or Technical Inspectors.

This rule modification would also allow competitors to take advantage, without running afoul of the rules, the statement on page XV of the 2010 Rulebook: "Additional safety equipment or safety-enhancing equipment is always permitted and the levels of safety equipment in this Rulebook are minimum prescribed levels for a particular type of competition and do not prohibit the individual racer from using additional safety equipment."

I'm sure all racers would appreciate the opportunity to upgrade their safety equipment in this area. Safety is something we all can afford.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is the committee's reply:
Don,

The Stock/Super Stock Committee has reviewed your request, to allow the use of aftermarket seats in Stock Eliminator; and has unanimously denied your request. Thank you for your interest in NHRA Championship Drag Racing.

Pat Cvengros

Technical Services Representative
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NHRA has also seen fit to revise the rules for seats in Stock as of 4/15/10. :confused:

DM

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Even though Don Morris makes a well stated case for replacement seats as a safety concern, it's interesting that the Rules Committee came back with an unqualified NO without sharing any justification for their decision. As a career pilot in both the Navy and in commercial aviation, I can tell you that their rules and operational procedures are written in blood. I wonder if the organization that is the world's foremost automotive racing safety body ( the stated rationale for their 501c(6) non-profit status) is waiting for a tragic accident to decide to take action. That seems to be the recent trend.
Steve

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

It seems that whenever someones says (insert gripe of the week here) is for safety and not performance, one really has to question the motive. No doubt, aftermarket seats are safer. You cannot dispute that. But let's dig a little deeper .

Is safety is your number one concern, I would ask you these questions...

Does your car have a full roll cage and window net?
Do you wear the hans device?
Do you wear SFI gloves and shoes?
Do you run a diaper?
Do you run a full transmission shield?

ALL of the items I listed above can be put into a stocker today... Aside from the AA and some A cars, I would bet 90% of the remaining cars and drivers do not use ANY of the items listed above .

So if safety is so important to you, why are you not using the allowed and legal safety devices that are available to you? After all isn't that what everyone is the post is preaching? How you want to be in a safer racecar...

I do like Gregs idea about an aftermarket seats that closely resemble the stock originals. The last thing I would want to see is a stocker with a Kirkey seat.

Stock has changed more in the last 5 years than it has in the 20 years before that. People like Ken call it progression, I call it bastardization.

In closing, if you don't feel safe in your racecar, maybe you shouldn't be in the seat.

If NHRA makes it an option, it should come with an addition of 5 HP. I bet you wouldn't put one in.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Performance and risks demand it. My old time tickets from my "stocker" showed 14.24 on down.My best 13.98 with belts and no bar. Today 9s to low 10 for stockers, and everything else is approached for safety but the seats. Fuel Cells, cages Belts, Helmets but if the seat moves, game over. I know this is another progression of Stock but a major safety one is possible.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

OK Dave, you lost me on that one, an aftermarket seat would warrant a 5hp increase?:confused:

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

he lost me too on that one

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

The point he is trying to make is that while you guys are on here making this a big issue, making it sound life and death, if the seat came with a 5hp cost, you probably wouldn't use it.

IE: You'd take 5hp less before you'd take the grater safety.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

It certainly would in my opinion. Aftermarket seats will save you at least 30 lbs over the originals and probably 60+ lbs for those with bench seats. Now you have x amount of available ballast to place wherever you please. Hence the performance advantage. Hence the 5 hp.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

This too. Thanks Sean.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Let me clear this up right now, i could care less where NHRA lets you use an aftermarket seat or not. When i was on the the SRAC committee, i recieved a lot of letters asking for the seats and we forwarded it to the NHRA Committee and they turned it down. Now as for the 5 HP, i don't remember NHRA giving SuperStock Horsepower when they started allowing the seats. I took my ride on a head on collision and my seat held up, but there are some cars that the seat will not! Just like Presidents, some of you vote one way, some of you vote another!

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

so Dave, did you take your 5 hp hit for wheelie bars, for aftermarket brakes, etc.? Maybe they should give you 5 hp off for having a cage, since you would add weight for that, and it would be toward the front.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

They allow the seats, but you must have a cage if you put them in. In my case, it's up to me to add the weight of a cage vs. the weight reduction of the seats. Seems like a wash in my case,.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

No, but if they did, I would take them out. That's my point. I also don't follow your logic about how ADDING weight against the roof line for the cage in the interest of safety applies. That is probably the worst place in a racecar to add weight.

I like how you ignored my questions about the safety items. I'm guessing you fall into the group that runs NONE of those safety items..further proving my point that you want this enhancement for others reason than safety.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I would say that Kirkey seats in a 69 camaro would save about 65 pounds. The question would be how much can one put in the trunk? The seats will make the car lighter even with the addition of the roll cage. Stock today is nothing more more than Super Stock with 9 inch tires, stock manifolds and stock lift cams. I think that Stock should have the same rules as Super Stock. Any rear end, transmission optional, roller rockers. None of this adds horsepower to the engine. In the case of the three speed vs a powerglide, it will make the car work better. in most cases. The big threat in stock today are drag paks and mustangs. Will NHRA do any of the above, probably not. While we are at this, lets add the 1955 to 1959 Chevys to stock.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

This is probably an unpopular stance, but changing the seat rule would just be one more step in making stock less stock. I realize there have been a number of rule changes over the years that have taken stock further and further from where it began but where do you draw the line? You all built your cars for STOCK eliminator. If you want to do more mods, consider going to a different category where those mods are allowed. Tony James is right, stock has become a glorified super stock but I think it should try to remain true to its origins.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I don't really care one way or the other how much money you want to dump into those cars.
I'd vote NO, just because of the way some of the fast guys treated the Deep Staging issue .
See how that works, guys?

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

A very interesting statement. Jim

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I'll address your safety issues. Clothing, I wear everything but gloves. The A/SA car will get the cage and window net over the winter, not so much for the newly acquired I/SA, there is a full trans shield on the Vette, no diaper yet, but I'm not sold on those yet. I have very expensive full face helmet, however on a stock seat a HANS is mush less effective due to lack of a good headrest, according to a HANS rep at PRI.

As for another motive, sure I'd love to get my head lower in the vette, it's a tight squeeze. But the weight would be no advantage as we already run weight on the nose and have to run a second battery and 40lbs of lead to make even AA/SA. What's your reason for being so against race seats in a stocker???? Got a fortune tied up in a pair of Swiss cheesed lightened stock seats?

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Since the HANS prevents overextending the neck and head in an impact where your body goes forward (in most cases), why does the headrest in the seat matter?

As for seats, the stock seat in my Mustang, a vehicle built in the 1990s, has slop in it and I would be safer in a properly designed racing seat.

Most of the non-racing aftermarket replacement seats are not held to the same factory crash standards and would likely be no safer than a stock seat, even an old one. In fact they could be worse, despite being seemingly sturdy. Most stock seats have lots of bracing in the back area, in order to hold up in a crash, or severe back injury will result. I have actually spoken with Ford vehicle engineers about this in the past. There are, however, lots of good aftermarket drag racing and road racing seats on the market. A solution could be to run a factory seat from a later-model vehicle. Then you don't have to worry (as much) about a weight issue. Surely, a seat from a 2010 Camaro, Mustang or Dodge will be plenty safe.

I started wearing gloves when the pants rule was put in place. I felt that I should apply logic because ironically, you don't need fire protection on what to me is the two most important areas of your body—your face and hands. In the case of a fire, I want to protect my face (I wear a full face with shield down) and my hands. Most of us need our hands to make a living, so why wear a jacket, pants, helmet, and no gloves? I just made it part of my routine and it's no big deal. It took me about 10 runs to get comfortable with them. I also have an on-board fire system.

I agree with Greg in that perhaps we should look at seats because many cars are old and have potentially worn-out seats, tracks, hardware, etc., but those seriously interested in safety should also follow Dave's advise and first get everything allowed to protect yourself.


Evan

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I understand the challenge between stock appearing and safety. I think there would be a way to do it. Now maybe the spec could have caveats such as which class, or mph or cage spec, those would be something.

I have run our car in C stick to K stick. I added a full cage. I know aftermarket seats would be lighter too. I think that some sort of agreement would have to be arranged as Greg Hill stated.

I don't agree with 5 hp, but I do think there should be something that makes the safety issue make sense.

For example, I could see some stockers that have old bolt in 3 point bars dropping in an alum kirkey and keeping the crappy old bolt in bar. It would not be logical and it would be clear that safety was not primary.

I go back to the disc brake issue. That topic was beat to death for safety, but it was really about saving weight. I remember one racer that had a late madel Camaro or Firebird crying about safety for his daughter, and yet the car came with factory 4 wheel discs. He had taken them off and put drums on. He could have legally put factory 4 wheel discs on and not had any issues stopping. He chose not to because they were heavy.

Don't get me wrong, I put the disc brakes on my car too when they were legalized, but we could have gotten by without them.

I think the seat deal is worth discussing, but we should look for solutions that satisfy stock looking and safety. The liklihood that a stocker will crash is pretty low, but the seat failing is high if you do. I think that is a good enough reason to discuss it. You could make the same case for helmets, firesuits, rollbars, etc.

We don't have to fight about it, but coming up with real solutions based upon everyones experience is good.

I don't think the money for a seat is an impact item here. I spent more getting mine recovered than I would have spent on aftermarket seats.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Hi Greg and others on your stock seats. I know for a fact you can tie up 1200 bucks in 2 Jaz aluminum seats (not as tall as Kirkey). That is if you want to make your stocker look stock. You know the custom matching upholstery. I made all the mounting brackets/hardware for mine, lightweight of course. It took about 6 hours and had them plated with yellow Zink. The $1200 doesn’t include the plating or material for the mounts. Oh, don’t forget you must support the backs of both seats to the crossbar of the rollbar. They may be safer, not sure, but they are definitely lighter. The Kirkey and Jaz seats have some covers, but don’t match most interiors. M. J. Quinn did my seat covers to match my door panels. I had the opportunity to set in Jeff Nicewanger's Jaz seat before doing mine, much better than the Kirkey. Kirkey is what we put in Glenn Betz Sunfire.

Ernie
SS3400

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Dave,

I thought I could get away with it, but you figured it out. My car will easily pick up a tenth with set of Kirkey's.

Bastardization of stock, WOW, I like that. I hope next year they do more in one year then then did in the past five years.

Funny, the young guy (Dave) wants Stock to be more like Stock, and the old guy (Ken) wants Stock to progress (sorry I ment to say basterdize). What the hell is this sport coming to?

All kidding aside, this not a big issue for me, Its just something I would like to see happen. Racing is dangerous, it does matter how much safety equipment we have, we still can get hurt. I am not a purist when it comes to stock. Stock became a bastardization when they let us use the first none stock part. I guess it comes down to what each racer considers stock to be. Everyone has there on opinion on where the line should be drawn. For me the line is irrelevant.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I agree with all of what you say but I have seen some mighty "UN-STOCK" looking intake manifolds in the past, heard of some others and Im sure they didnt disappear over night.....lol.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Maybe it's time for everyone to look under their factory seat and inspect the tracks and
mounting point.I don't think NHRA would mind if anyone reinforced the frame/mounting points for their safety.
It's getting here like our "grannie government" politicians,wanting to look out for us instead
of the racers using common sense and looking out for ourselves.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

This rule would just put Stock one step closer to Superstock

Lets just change the Cam rule and cylinder head rules and let everyone run Superstock. Then we can all be safe.

No more changes

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Evan, my understanding on the Hans issue is that due to the soft nature of a factory headrest, combined with the amount of padding in a stock type seat, could allow the Hans to come out from under the belts in a violent crash. No matter how tight you think you have strapped yourself to a stock seat, there is stil some give in a seat made mostly of foam, as opposed to aluminum. That's just what I was told when I started asking some questions

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Will you pick up a tenth, no. Will it allow you to move weight around and make the car a better racecar, yes. Will it allow you to place the driver lower and further back in the car creating a better racecar, yes.

Ken, we also know you aren't a purist, that's why you race a car with options that it never came with, and you are building a car that was never offered on the street! :)

With all of the "enhancements" we have had shoved down our throats the last few years, to me, the seats will be the biggest aesthetic change to hit stock eliminator. Today you can look inside a stocker and still resembles what it did when the car was original. The seats go a long way in making this resemblance. This is the point I and it seems a few others on the post are driving at. A Jaz or Kirkey seat does not belong in a stocker.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Ouch ! me thinks someone dislike my choices. Your a bright fellow, if your going to build a combo you might as well be smart about it. No sense in building a played out combo such as yours.:rolleyes:

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

If your car leaves on the bumper now its because you are an IDIOT who doesn't know how to tune your racecar. And I never said it would make you win.

Also, you are a big man to call people names behind a cute name like clutch man. Sign your real name and we'll talk. I've probably forgotten more about what it takes to swing the stick then you will ever know.