Copo Camaros
 

How many of these cars were built? they are all aluminum motors right? Is there any of them running S/SS? I just saw one go for 137k on B-J




Stephen Johnson #2162
Horace Johnson #2167
SS/D 427 Ford Fairlane NHRA-IHRA
RecordHolder

Re: Copo Camaros
 

That was an iron block car. They built several hundred, There were 69 aluminum block cars.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Way too many Camaro experts out there??
But I'll try this one..
COPO #9560 was the All-Aluminum ZL-1 engine
COPO #9561 was the L-72 427/425HP
Cost for the COPO #9560 $7200 (Car $3100 + Engine $4100)
How many??? Numbers kind of gyrate all over the place. Possibly 69 ZL-1's.
How about the 69' Chevelle COPO L-72 427/425HP..(31 were built)
That one was easier.
PC
Does that sound right???

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Stephen/Horace,

I don't claim to be a first generation Camaro expert, but I have heard and read that there might have been 900 or more 427/425hp COPO 1969camaros made. The Yenko SC COPOs were probably the most famous, and there were either 198 or 201 of the Yenkos made. There is some debate about that number officially.

Then there were other dealers getting in on the COPO 427/425 thing too...I think Baldwin Motion and Berger were a couple of them.

The 427/425 HP in a Camaro was -I think- option RPO L72 and was definately an iron block. The 427/425HP was also available in '69 chevelles.

The only aluminum block 427 available in the 69 camaro was the ZL-1 which was ordered by Fred Gibb if memory serves correct. There were 69 ZL-1 camaros produced. He had a heck of a time selling them and I think Chevrolet either bought some back or redistributed them to other dealers. I think the ZL-1 was about a $4000 option. This engine was I thin developed for CAN-AM racing back in the late 60's.

I do think there are several 427-425 HP cars in SS. I think but am not sure Brian Oakes runs that combo, and maybe Jack Sepanek and a few others, I think most of the 69 camaros running in SS/C would be the 427-425hp as that combo is a natural D, which was originally a Corvette engine package. The ZL-1 I think is a natural B car.

Like I said, I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I have read a fair amount about the COPO Camaros over the years and what I wrote should be kinda sorta close. Might not be exact.

And, I too saw the B-J auction for the COPO 69 camaro.....I have never heard of an RS COPO Camaro.Most if not all of the COPOS I recall were basically base model type cars.

COPO stood for Central Office Production Order...GM had a ban on all cars besides the Corvette getting the real high HP engines. Some dealers found a loophole for lack of a better term with the COPO thing....the real job of the COPO deal was for fleet vehicles. I am thinking Vince Piggins at Chevrolet kinda worked things for some dealers to get Vette engines in non Vette cars.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

So was Dick Ogle's old 69 Camaro that he used to run in SS/B a COPO version before he went to the vette? thanks for the info


Stephen Johnson #2162
Horace Johnson #2167
SS/D 427 Ford Fairlane NHRA-IHRA
RecordHolder

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Stephen/Horace,

Yes, that would have been a COPO. I'm not sure how the combos fit in the class guides back in the old days, so I can't say for sure what combo Olges may have actually ran. But I feel rather sure it would have to have been the ZL-1. I don't think the 427/425 can make it to B. The last time I checked-about a year ago-the 427/425 '69 Camaro is a natural D car. The ZL-1 is a natural B, I think it breaks at 6.56.

Also, I do recall reading in the engine specs at NHRA's site that the ZL-1 as used in SS can be either iron or aluminum block.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

I agree with what everyone has said here on the COPO Camaros. I will add though, they did produce a very few RS 427 COPO Camaros, I own and race a Berger |Chevrolet |RS COPO. Berger sold about 40 COPO Camaros, with around 6 of them being Rally Sports. If you go to the Camaro Research Group website,click on the CRG report box and go to the report on 427 COPOs, you will find alot of good info on the COPO cars, including the BergerCOPOs

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Thanks for the clarification about the RS optioned COPO Camaros in '69 Dana. I have frequented the CRG site as it is an invaluable resource for the first generation camaro enthusiast.

The Barret Jackson auction for one of these cars-fully documented , brought what I thought was a pretty low winning bid. I was shocked, and so were some other members of www.camaros.net in the COPO Dealers forum.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Wow....Im not a Chevy guy, nice explanation, I always wondered what certain acronyms meant (COPO) etc....I saw a "Paint Delete" car on Ebay a while back, Camaro .... Paint Delete....strange.....

Nice history, I know 300% more about the COPO than before I read it.

Cheers

Chris

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Chris,

The paint delete camaros may have been 'special paint' where they would get a non camaro color. I 'think' a camaro could get any color at GM other than what was listed for Cadillacs. I read over some testimony about this not long ago by someone that is a first gen camaro expert imo. I think the auction you are talking about was the focus of the conversation. I can't recall exactly. I'm a bit delerious at the moment-all day at the track huffing race gas and tire smoke in 30 degree temps,lol.



The paint delete or special paint could have been a fleet thing, like for rental car companies or something.

Dana can probably give you a lot more COPO 427 Camaro info than I can. Cool cars for sure!

All the best,

Michael

Re: Copo Camaros
 

The iron block in the ZL-1 combo is being used in stock also.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Steve Koppien's blue Camaro that he won Stock Eliminator at Brainerd with last season is a honest-to-Gawd COPO 9561.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/sk1.jpg

Re: Copo Camaros
 

[QUOTE=Michael Kilduff;164735] The 427/425 HP in a Camaro was -I think- option RPO L72 and was definately an iron block. The 427/425HP was also available in '69 chevelles.
[QUOTE]

The L72 option (427-425) was also available in the big cars....Biscaynes & Impalas.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

All posted info correct...
But #'s say,,822 of the COPO 9561 L-72 units were built, all 4-speeds.
Then, an additional 193 automatic units were built, for a total of 1015.
Since I was at New York National Speedway on Long Island numerous times, home base for Motion Performance, I did get to see a couple of them. AHRA-based track..Most of them ran 11.80's or so. Would be
NHRA-classed SS/C then SS/D.
First race for a ZL-1,,,AHRA Winternationals, January 69' in Arizona.
PC

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Numbers as high as 1250 or so have been reported for the COPO 9561 L-72 Camaro. How many now or were race cars is rather difficult to determine.

Numbers for the 9560 ZL-1 cars are a lot easier to cover. Of 69 built, some 36 are known and accounted for as of the last couple of years, a few of them written off as a total loss.


I'm thinking considerably more COPO 9562 L-72 69 Chevelles were built than the 31 previously posted. If they only built 31 of them, that would mean there were fewer of them than there were 67 L-88 Corvettes (supposedly 36 sold) and the 67 L-88 Corvette was removed from the guide. I'm seeing numbers closer to 350-375, as COPO 9562, records say Yenko ordered and sold 99 of them.

From Super Chevy Magazine:

Chevrolet, via Vince Piggins' Product Promotion department, decided to assign at least 12 different COPO numbers and letters to Chevelles with different transmissions, suspension components, tires, brakes, and bucket seats.

COPO Chevelle Special Features:
- Super Sport blackout grille with bow tie emblem
- Super Sport hood
- Black rear cove panel
- 12-bolt differential with 4.10:1 gearing (code KQ)
- Standard Malibu interior
- Either SS emblem or Bow Tie emblem on steering wheel
- L72 425hp 427 (code MQ with four-speed transmission or code MP with TH400 automatic transmission).
- Optional: Side body stripes, RPO NC8 chambered exhaust.

1969 Yenko Chevelle Breakdown
Of the 99 built, 55 had a four-speed manual transmission, bench seat and standard steering. Six of these had a vinyl roof. Thirty-seven more were TH400 automatics with power steering, rear radio antenna and a vinyl top. One automatic transmission car had no vinyl top. Body colors included: Le Mans blue -20, Fathom green -18, Butternut yellow -16, Hugger orange -14, Garnet red -12, Daytona yellow -12, Dover white -5 and Olympic gold -5.

COPODescription
9562AA Chevelle sport coupe, four-speed manual, Positraction. Must be used with COPO 9694 disc brake option.

9562BA Chevelle sport coupe, TH400 automatic and Positraction. Must be used with COPO 9694 disc brake option.

9562CD Chevelle sport coupe, four-speed manual, Positraction, bucket seats, 15-inch tires, special coil springs.

9562CE Chevelle sport coupe, four-speed manual, Positraction, 15-inch tires, special coil springs.

9562DD Chevelle sport coupe, TH400 automatic, Positraction, bucket seats, 15-inch tires, special coil springs.

9562DE Chevelle sport coupe, TH400 automatic, Positraction, 15-inch tires, special coil springs.

9562EA Chevelle sport coupe, four-speed manual, Positraction, J52 power disc brakes, F70x14 tires.

9562FA Chevelle sport coupe, TH400 automatic, Positraction, J52 power disc brakes, F70x14 tires.

9694CA Four-speed manual, Positraction, special front disc brakes, J50 power brakes, COPO 9737 equipment.

9694CB As above, but with TH400 automatic.

9566AA Four-speed manual, Positraction, J52 power brakes, Super Sport wheels.

9566BA As above with TH400 automatic, 15-inch F70 raised white letter (RWL) tires on Rally wheels, Speedometer Reducer Gear.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

ALAN,
I stand corrected on the 69' COPO 427 Chevelle's. I'm not sure what I was thinking at that moment. Must have got hit in the head by a big-block connecting rod.
323 built as per Musclecar...for the 69' Chevelle COPO 427..(Not 31 as I incorrectly stated).
This is a 69' Camaro COPO thread. The Fred Gibb/Dickie Harrell car ran at the 69' AHRA Winternationals, at Bee-Line, Arizona in January 69.
Knocked off Sox & Martin, and made it to the finals, before getting beat by Arlon Vanke...Set ET record for SS/E (Super Stock Experimental) at that event.
PC

Re: Copo Camaros
 

what Al Nyhus said...
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...7/DSC_9660.jpg

Re: Copo Camaros
 

It's pretty obvious that this is a COPO Camaro thread. :rolleyes:

Again, reliable sources state between 350-375 Chevelles were built, factory order records show at least 350, and up to 375, with 99 going to Don Yenko, 55 being bench seat 4 speed cars and 37 being TH400 equipped, the other 7 being of other various combinations.

We race a COPO replica in Stock, we have both combinations, the L-72 and the ZL-1, so I'm pretty well aware of the Camaro orientation of this thread.

The ZL-1 was built to run in SS/B, the L-72 Camaro was built to run in SS/C, and they needed a car to run SS/D, so Piggins decided to put the L-72 in the Chevelle to run SS/D.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Alan,

Did go over some of my old Dover Drag Strip paperwork.
Found Bill Cadiz running in SS/D with a 69' Camaro, April 1969.
Won S/S Eliminator with a 11.51 @122...Was the L-72 Camaro eligible for A/Stock in 69' also??

Re: Copo Camaros
 

I'm about ten years too young to directly remember much about what happened in 1969 from a hands on personal perspective. It just happens that I've been fooling with the L-72 cars off and on for a few years now, I am by no means an expert on them.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Something way cool about racing your 6 figure collector car! He's going to put it back to street duty sometime though he said.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Can you tell by the ser# if a car is a COPO?? Camaro?

If so what #'s do you look for???

Re: Copo Camaros
 

The vin#s of the COPO 9560 cars (69 total cars) that were equipped with aluminum 427 blocks have been widely circulated. Their identities and the locations of most of the survivors is no big secret to the insiders who follow and collect them.

The COPO 9561 cars (no one seems to know the exact number) that were equipped with iron 427 blocks were never documented by anyone other than the Yenko organization and a few collectors who got on the bandwagon early in the game. The Yenko cars are listed. The other 1000 (or so) 9561 cars are not officially cataloged although there are people who have tracked many of them unofficially. An expert can sometimes trace a given car back but if it's been modified and cut up too extensively it will take a keen eye and broad background to be able to state definitively that a car is a 9561 COPO. In the end, there will always be questions about any car that is not accompanied by original paperwork and/or an unimpeachable chain of ownership going back to day-one.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

chuck one of the copo 9560 car went to allen green chev. in BURIEN washington, the service manger dick totino raced it in the early days of pro stock, it has sold many times in the nw the alum. motor expired at the hands of john mangini one night at the old puyallup drag strip, to my knowledge it is a bracket in seattle?

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Junior,

I will add to what Chuck has written. It isn't possible to soley use the VIN to determine a real COPO, unless the engine is in or with the car and even then there are caveats.
I think starting in 1968 Chevrolet stamped the vin either partially or in whole on the block and the transmission on all cars produced in compliance with federal law. So, if you find a 69 camaro with a 427 engine and the vins matched up then it would be reasonable to assume the car is a COPO.

The caveat is that people can restamp blocks and create a fake. And the restampers are getting very accurate with what was factory produced. It is very difficult to ascertain what is real and what is restamped. And, of course, when a block is decked usually the original stamping is removed.

I'm not a first generation camaro expert, but I think these are some things that may be helpful in identifying a 427 COPO camaro.

With the VIN on the dash you ascertain if the car was a V-8 coupe which is essential to a COPO 427. If memory serves correct the third digit in the VIN would be a 4 and the fourth and fifth digits would be 3 and 7. The *4* identifies a 8 cylinder engine and the *37* identifies the body as a coupe. To the best of my knowledge there were no convertible 427 COPO Camaros in 1969. There are also 'hidden' partial VINS on 1969 camaros on the firewall behind the heater box and on the cowl just under the cowl panel.

During production in 1969 the Camaros built at the Norwood plant were given X codes found in the trim tag such as x-11, x-22, x-33, x-44, x-55, x-66, and x-77. cars built in Van Nuys had no X=codes. The early built Norwood cars had no X-codes. The X-codes appeared a few months into 1969 production in Norwood.

Most people think all the COPO 427 Camaros were X-44 and that is not true. There were many X-codes used for COPOs, i think the first COPO 427s were X-66. X-codes may be used to qualify that a car isn't a COPO 427 however. All X-55 1969 camaros were SS-350 for example. But not all SS-350 cars were X-55.

It should be known people are faking trim tags and swapping trim tags around as well to create clones. There is even a company called 'Trim Tags' that make such tags, and unscrupulous Ebay sellers such as 'bucket full of tags' will sell tags that came off of other cars.

A Camaro expert could help someone identify a car as possibly having been an original COPO 427. None of the COPO 427 cars came with AC for example, and all came with the ZL-2 cowl induction hood, all came with big block heater cores. These are easy things to identify, but others are much more difficult such as deciphering specific date codes and assembly dates. In identifying legit breeds of '69 Camaros such as z-28s, SS cars, and probably the 427 cars things like fuel line size, exhaust hanger brackets, sway bar diameter, multileaf rear springs, number of hood hinge coils, etc can help identify if a car is 'real' or not. But all of these things can be bought and applied to a plain jane 6 cylinder car just as well.

About the only way to actually ascertain if a car is a true COPO is to have the documentation supporting it and a chain of ownership if possible. protect-o=plates and reciepts, service records, pics for 1970 etc...

The car that was at B-J this weekend that sold for 137K that was presented as a COPO 427 has a cloud of uncertainy surrounding it that is getting darker. It was presented with GM Canada docs at auction but it is possible that someone could build a COPO around these documents with a donor 69 camaro.

Last year at B-J a certain ZL-1 COPO 69 camaro-number 27 of the original 69 I think- was sold and it is well known that the car is not originally a ZL-1, it is a recreation.

Lots of deception in the collector car market . Restamps and switching VINs runs rampant.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Thanks Michael.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Larry, the car you are probably talking about is ZL-1 number 27 that I mentioned in my post.
Last year that car rolled across the block at B-J auction and created quite a ruckus. Well, the VIN to car number 27 of the ZL-1 heritage rolled across the block, but probably nothing else.

One of the previous owners of the car-Chuck Sharin- weighed in on what became of that car. He raced the real ZL-1 #27 in Wash state back in the 1970's and went in detail at www.camaros.net in a thread about the car and the history of it. Also included is a 9 minute clip of the auction.

Lots of reading but educational, and very entertaining-

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=149505

Re: Copo Camaros
 

thanks michael that is correct chuck raced it for a while, then i think comp. racer dave barcelon has owned it and re- sold it a couple of times he has some really good pics in his shop , i miss the old days and allen green chev with all there hp cars.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Michael, that is some great info on what to look for on COPO Camaros. A couple of more things; COPOS had front disc brakes, curved upper neck radiators, and heavy duty BE-code 12 bolt rearends. Early Yenkos I believe were X66 and X22 codes. A few were X11 (mine and I believe most of the Bergers) but X44 were the most common.
Some, like Berger ordered them in bunches so there are some consecutive body #'s that can also help in identifying them.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Yenko started the 427 Camaro issue buy ordering 396 Camaros and a crate 427 and doing the conversion themselves...to streamline the issue they convinced the powers that be at Chevy to provide him with a way to order the cars with the 427 already installed, this started the COPO 9561 and 9560 Camaros....Yenko wanted the codes and the cars for themselves but the codes managed to be picked up by other performance dealerships ending their exclusive use of the codes....any dealer anywhere if they had the right code could order a COPO Camaro....this also is what makes total production tough because a 427 Yenko Camaro could be just that and not be a COPO Camaro....and Yenko wasn't the only place that did this prior to the COPO availability...

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Motion Performance out on Long Island did the same thing with the
396 to 427 conversions, to go along with the proper #9561 factory COPO cars.
Does anybody know when they were eligible for A/S and A/SA..
I'm guessing 1970 or 1971???
Some beautiful cars at Barrett-Jackson. Much deserved KUDO's to the people that put out those wonderful cars together...But GEEZ, do those guys at B-J massage the truth or what????
Some misinformation out there on the first ZL-1 car..but I do believe that
Herb Fox drove the first one at the 69' AHRA Winternationals for
Fred Gibbs in the Dickie Harrell prepared car..1/20/69..
Paul C

Re: Copo Camaros
 

One thing to remember about the 69 model Camaro's is they ran for a year and one half and into the 1970 year models. GM was on strike for 67 days during the model year also. All of that affected how many of the COPO's were built and when they were built. I was 20 years old in 1969 and all the buzz in the Car Mag's was about the COPO cars along with the Yenco's and Baldwin cars. I wanted one really bad but could not afford the add on costs so I ended up buying a 375 HP 396 with a turbo 400 Chevelle. The reason I remember the strike of 67 days so well is the Chevelle was held up by the strike for well over the 67 days due to the backups caused by the strike. Another thing I remember well was not every dealership would even order a solid lifter engine option. I had to dealer shop for the dealer to order the 375 HP option. When I asked about the COPO option the dealer had to check about doing that. He came back days later with it could be done but the cost put it out of my reach. I can not remember exactly what I was quoted for the COPO option but it was well over my budget.
I just wish I had kept that car and a few others I had over the years.
Living through the muscle car era did have its advantages.
Just not to sure it was the "Good Ole Days"
My 2 Cents

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Nobody has come up an exact number of 9561 COPO Camaros that were made in 1969. But since the engine plant only produced 1015 L-72 Camaro coded 427/425hp engines for the 69 model year, it is generally assumed this was the most 9561 COPOs that could have been produced. If you consider some of these L-72's were made for warranty replacements, the number of COPO Camaros would then be less. CRG puts the number at 700-1015 COPO 9561 1969 Camaros.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

It wasn't the cost of the L-72 COPO 9561 option that hurt so much,,,,it was the INSURANCE!!.....I think I remember that the cost between a
SS396 Camaro with the 396/375HP L-89 aluminum head option and
COPO 9561 were pretty close in price..Wasn't the alumimun head option around the $750.00 range for the L78 396/375.??
Paul

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Coincidentally, the blue '69 SS/DA pictured on page 22 of Tom Sheehan's post titled "stock and SS Camaros" on this Forum belonged to Jay Payne of Alcohol FC fame. It was an original COPO 9561 that Jay ran in SS/DA for several years. He has described to me the trip to Ohio to pick it up when it was new. He and, I believe, Mike Walker flew to somewhere around Cincinnati, picked up the car, and drove it back to California. When Jay moved on to another class he sold it to Paul Gobbera who continued to race it in Division 7 for a few more years. The last time I heard of the car it was for sale somewhere in Division 2.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

As far as the alum head option I do not recall but the 375 HP option was less than a $200 option on the SS Chevelle.
My 69 SS 396 375 HP Chevelle with the turbo 400 had a sticker price less than $3000 on the window. I remember that very well as that was a ton of money for me at that time when I was making $2 to $3 dollars an hour. I thought even when I got married in 1971 if I could make $10,000 a year I would be rich.
Rick

Re: Copo Camaros
 

A friend of mine purchased a 9561 COPO Camaro from Berger in Dec. 1969. Paid $3900 for it. Not an RS, I think the RS option COPO's would have been around $4200. He said his car payment was $87 a month, and he brought home $120 a month. The Berger COPO's were nicely optioned and may have been more expensive than the more stripped down COPO's. I paid $2200 for mine in 1977, had the chance to buy his for $4500 in the early 80's, but thought the price was nuts. He repurchased the car in the 90's for a whole lot more!
I have an old Car Craft mag. with a write up on the Payne and Walker Camaro, one of them was quoted as saying the best investment they ever made was" narrowing the rear frame rails". LOL! Who knew what they would be worth someday!

Re: Copo Camaros
 

www.yenko.net

These people live and breathe this stuff. Also a lot of cool pictures as well as other stuff.

Re: Copo Camaros
 

I will post the actual dealer price sheet for the COPO 9561, as soon as it is e-mailed to me from my friend. He has one from an original car.
He bought a 69' SS396/375 HP with the RS-option. He said the cost of his car, with the options was approximiately the same price as a
COPO 9561. If he ordered his car with the L-89 aluminum head option, his car would have cost more than the COPO car, which was on the lot, at Byrne Brothers Chevrolet, White Plains, NY.
PC

Re: Copo Camaros
 

Really neat topic. I've enjoyed reading this.