Clutchless trans
 

WHAT, NO MORE ABOUT THE CLUTCHLESS TRANS? MUST BE SOMETHING GOING ON OUT THERE! I HEARD DANNY'S GOT THE BULL BY THE HORN,BUT BEEN TURNED DOWN 3 TIMES! STEPED ON TOO MANY PEOPLES FEET.:eek:

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Pat Cvengros said Bruce was inquiring with racers. I didn't ask but I would guess it is a straw pole based upon his e mail inquiry.

Pat Cvengros did say that it would be considered for SuperStockers only.

I did not vote as I do not have a stick shift superstocker any more, just a stocker. If you are a stickshift SSer, might be worth an e mail to Bruce. I did not see anything published on this on NHRA.com. I e- mailed Pat Cvengros at NHRA directly, that was his response. Jim

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Letter I just sent to both Pat & Bruce @ NHRA:

Hi Pat,
I just read you are looking for input on clutchless transmissions in Stock & Super Stock.
My opinion is this should be allowed in Super Stock as it more closely resembles the upgrades allowed to a Super Stock automatic transmission. Furthermore, since tranny-brakes are allowed in Super Stock, there should be an allowance for electro-magnetic clutch pedal release mechanisms as shown here: http://www.biondoracing.com/ClutchRelease.shtml , release would be the same legal buttons as the a/t classes are allowed. This would be an affordable upgrade option to the SS stick racer.
I'm in the (long) process of re-working my SS/H AMX from front to back. A new clutchless transmission is not part of the equation at this point but I do not feel it is a necessity; but it would be a consideration for future use.
Regarding usage in the Stock class, I would be inclined to say no. I think this type of transmission should be part of the "upgrade package" when graduating from Stock to Super Stock and Stock Class racers should have rules with cost considerations. And no, that wasn't a joke...
Also on this subject, I know of several auto trans Stock & Super Stock racers who would be more willing to run a stick class if not for the index penalty on many of the classes. Drop the spread between the stick and auto classes (same letter designation, i.e., SS/J vs. SS/JA index difference of two tenths) and allow clutchless transmissions in SS and I have good input you might see a surge in stick class participants.
That's all for now, thanks for hearing us!
Jeff Lee
SS/H #7494

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Damn Rich,
Whats the big deal. You kick *** without one... OH! same thing is gettin' you is gettin' me.. Birthdays stacking up?? :~)

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Jeff having to let the clutch out on time is one reason why most guys want to run a manual car. Having something release the clutch pedal other than your foot doesn't do it for me. I got the email and said no to the clutchless. If you want a clutchless car go run comp eliminator. Ed

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Took the words right out of my mouth! I couldn't agree with you more Ed. :cool:

Re: Clutchless trans
 

NHRA asked for opinions, I presented mine.
You can drive your car as you see fit. I also
mentioned I would not be installing a clutchless
but it could be an option to others.
But if you read my letter & didn't freeze on one
aspect, you may have noticed some of it
was geared to auto racers being reluctant
to switch to manual trans for a variety of
reasons.
Now maybe the real story is both of you
would rather not see more stick cars and
the increase in competition?

Re: Clutchless trans
 

I wish there were 20 more SS/H cars in D4. It would be alot more fun. I don't race enough yet to talk trash. I'm not afraid of you or anybody else if that's what you mean. I'm not the fastest and I know that. You need to worry about Tony Fillipone, Bob Earlywine, Danny Coffman etc. Just having fun with ya. Ed

Re: Clutchless trans
 

I have to say that if NHRA where to allow clutchless trans, I would switch from my automatic. Nothing sounds better than standing at the big end, and hearing a stick car coming down the track. I have been told that with the mods that the current trans have going to a clutchless isn't really that much different. But I'm to much of a coward to try it now; having only driven automatics all my racing life.

Re: Clutchless trans
 

69ss/rs just do it!!!!

Re: Clutchless trans
 

I really don't see the big deal allowing clutchless transmissions in Super Stock or Stock for that matter. If the truth be told, I bet at least 80% of the current G Force or Jerico users shift them clutchless anyhow weather they will admit to it or not. I think they sould at least allow them in the modified SS classes. This would allow a lot of the Super Modified Comp racers with sticks to also run SS like a lot of the automatic Super Modified cars do now and I would think this could help with car counts at a lot of races. I would also like to see them do away with the seperate stick and auto classifications and class them both together. The weight deductions for the automatics is another part of this that should be eliminated as todays transmission and converters along with auto shifts and transbrakes they are not slower or at a disadvantage to a stick car. If anything they might even have the performance advantage to all but the best clutch tuners.
Just my thoughts....
Brett

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Ed,
Great minds think alike. My reply was the same- almost word for word.

Jeff,
If you can get the electro-magnet T/O bearing passed for the guys that can't move their left foot, then I'll lobby to get a photocell to read the tree. That will 'level the playing field' for all the guys that can't cut a light.

I always thought the sport of racing was the challenge of 'driving' the car-not just going along for the ride.

___________________________

Andy Stone 1102 A/S 1112 SS/C

Re: Clutchless trans
 

"Opinions Vary" that is what Patrick Swayze said in the movie "Roadhouse" The more stick cars the better!!! Let the slush pump cars have all the "driver aided" BS on their cars. :rolleyes: Remember when manual meant manual? At Least i can say I still do. Real Race Cars Have 3 Pedals, always have been-always will be... :cool:

Re: Clutchless trans
 

I think if they allowed clutchless, some auto guys would switch. I have at least one hemi customer that I know would. One thing that I read on here was that they wont stay in gear when you let off the gas. They stay in high gear (the jericos do at least) because the slider has flats on the coast side instead of ramps. I am in favor of it for a couple reasons, it gets the spike out of the rpm between gears (hard on valves) and it makes the car easier to shift. Its not as easy to pull a hemi out of gear as a GT/E car. I voted yes twice for my dad and I. I havent heard anything yet. The poll closed last friday.
cw

Re: Clutchless trans
 

I too would like to see sticks and autos combined. I firmly believe NHRA will make it happen. That's why I'm all for clutchless transmissions and even allowing electro-magnetic clutch releases. I would call that foresight.
If this happens, you macho guys that think your in control of everything are going to sit on the line like dead ducks when your on equal footing with a SS that has a time release activated tranny brake and cuts double O lights at will. What I suggest will make things equal.
Personally, I would love the competition of the fastest of the SS/HA cars (and there are many). Once I get my car back of course...

And FYI guys, I've not had any problems cutting lights or running my dial in the past; with or without the clutch pedal on shifts. Two weeks after hitting the track for the first time with my D/S AMX I attended my first national event. I made it to Sunday's show. And back then I didn't even know you could shift without a clutch!

Nobody has any comments on the spread between auto classes and stick classes?

Charlie Westcotts post was right on. Furthermore, call Rob Youngblood and ask him how many more customers he would have if that spread were not there. Why should a guy get penalized two tenths because he has a stick and everything else is equal? Racers call him and say they would love to have a stick but not with an index penalty and time release gizmos that are allowed with an auto trannies.

And where was this poll? I never saw it.

Re: Clutchless trans
 

I'm sitting here letting this cold run it's course. So I crunched a few numbers. Not taking sides, just showing the numbers.
Using the Dec. Nitro Joe's Stats book I took a look at the most populated classes. I know that this is a run count, not a true car count as some cars migrate from class to class and have multiple drivers. So its based on fastest runs.
The AA/SA thru I/SA has a index from 10.90 to 12.60 with a run count of 969 That is a count of AA/SA =65 to I/SA =70
The sick cars fall a little different. with AA/S at only 9. I dropped it and count only A/S to G/S because there are double digit numbers in those classes A/S to G/S = 179 A/S =30 G/S =16 The index in A/S to G/S is 11.25 to 12.20
So that makes 969 for autos and 179 for Sticks that is an 18% ratio
If you take the total stick count, 245 vs the total auto count 1305 you get the same 18% ratio. I think it is interesting that the most populated car counts run the same 18% of overall partipation count in both Stick & Auto
Classes. I think that says there is the same chance of a headsup in the populated Stick classes as the most populated auto classes.
Now it is interesting that the index numbers tighten up to a .95 seconds range in the sticks VS the 1.7 second range for the autos. I think that would show that 2 stick cars, from the most populated classes, would have a 45% chance of running closer to one another (side by side) than the most populated autos. Ah!, but when you compare the actual fastest runs instead of index what is it? A/S fasted listed run = 9.813 G/S fastest listed run =10.888 That is a 1.075 range. The AA/SA fastest run listed = 9.613 and the I/SA = 11.333 for a 1.17 second range. I think that shows that the stick racing is still closer? So I can conclude that sticks racing one another is closer and faster than automatics racing one another.

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Adger:

You have way to much time on you hands! Ha

S.E.

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Adger
Can you compare the fastest ET for A-G classes and the Average ET? See how the fast sticks and average sticks compare.

Re: Clutchless trans
 

When your on drugs, Prescribed.. I might add... for a cold the last thing I need is to be smelling the fumes at my shop and loose a finger in some mill or to a sharp tool !! These keyboards don't have sharp edges.. They might bring out some SHARP old guys like you, S.E... :~)

Thanks for reminding me.. I thought all us older racers were running out of time...

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Stewart,
I did everything with pen and paper... That would require some major number crunching that way. {quote Adger
Can you compare the fastest ET for A-G classes and the Average ET? See how the fast sticks and average sticks compare.
Today 02:21 PM } end quote
Joe's Excel program might be able to do that pretty quick or I could just avg the Fastest/Slowest numbers for each class.
I did notice when I was running the numbers that you had to get WAY down the list on the stick cars before falling below the old .50 the index.
That was "excluding altitude runs". Some of them only 1-3 were below the
50 index. (C,F & G have none) Not so on the auto classes. There seems to be more guys going to get hurt, need to pick up, in the auto classes by this .3 reduction, if their not 'bagging.
Is that where you were going?
That might give us the picture your asking about. If not I might work on that a little.

Re: Clutchless trans
 

I have a better idea, no to co2 shifters in superstock. I mean come on they aren't even allowed in Pro Stock.. Hmm No to transbrakes too (Alright I'm gettin greedy) haha

Anyways, I voted no to clutchless since I can't afford a clutchless trans, Im still running a Doug Nash 4+1 haha

Re: Clutchless trans
 

If this happens, you macho guys that think your in control of everything are going to sit on the line like dead ducks when your on equal footing with a SS that has a time release activated tranny brake and cuts double O lights at will. What I suggest will make things equal.

Jeff I guess we should tell guys like Brad Zaskowski and Kevin Helms w/o a time released switch on the clutch pedal their dead ducks as you say on the starting line.
Come on Jeff why in the hell would you even consider this. Ed

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Point is made on the assumption NHRA will eventually combine sticks and autos. Current SS auto trans racers have access to MULTIPLE means of releasing their trans brakes at a prescribed time release.
Kevin, Brad and whoever else all have their days (myself included) but on a consistent basis, I would say there are more auto racers that can cut a "00" light more often than any stick racer. Yes, that's only half the battle, the rest is at the finish line.
You don't think NHRA would like to combine the stick & auto classes?

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Jeff there are alot of fast cars in HA. What do you think would be fair to combine them. Their side will say work harder on your stuff if you can't beat us. We will say auto stuff has caught up to or passed stick stuff. Some guys can afford clutchless trans. I can't. I would never agree to any switch on the pedal. Even if it was allowed I would never run it. That's a person choice. Our index is 10.80 oh wait I mean 10.50. HA is 10.60. Would you want to split it and have it 10.55 for everybody? If they try to combine everyone will complain no matter what. I agree there needs to be more heads up runs. I have never had one and I won't in D4 unless I dropped to G there are a couple cars. I would get smoked in G. There are a number of HA though. So that would increase the chances of a heads up run. By the way Jeff what is min wt on your car for H. later, Ed

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Jeff Brad Zaskowski finished #4 in national points last year. he had number of good days last year.

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Guys like Brad & Kevin are the exception, not the rule - without driver aides like adjustable buttons, etc there are ALOT of racers out there that would be best to just stay home. Same goes for the delay box classes.

From a pure driver vs driver standpoint, none of the driver aides should be allowed. BUT since a large QTY of drivers need all the help they can get (I have an air shifter so I guess put me in that category) they are vocal and NHRA seems to cater to the squeaky wheels in absence of a democratic system.

Re: Clutchless trans
 

I agree with Jeff that NHRA should combine the sticks and autos. I have raced both sticks and autos and clearly there is an unfair advantage for someone who is allowed to launch their car with the release of a button versus the movement of the foot. If there is a debate I would suggest observing what happens when someone gets caught using a transbrake in a "foot brake" class.

As well, and for what it's worth, take a look at the horsepower ratings since the advent of the AHFS. The autos are having horsepower added and for the most part sticks are not. Why? Because the index penalty for having a stick is unequivocally outdated when you consider radial tires, modern three speed transmissions, and the benefit of a 5 to 1 ratio of automatic cars versus stick cars flogging their combinations. I think it's time to consolidate the classes.

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Right now the 66 Chevy II is rated at 299hp stick /307hp auto for the 327. ed

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Wow, I can't believe what i am reading.. I thought that is what separated the men from the boys was dropping the clutch vs. moving your foot off a brake pedal or releasing a button for a trans brake. I guess all this BS is past the point of no return (pathetic). I would give anything to go back in time (not even that far back either) when Drag Racing was actually cool and the stick shift Stock & Super Stock cars were raced the way they should be. You automatic racers and "Oh i want a bunch of driver aided gadgets" drivers that pretend that you are true stick shift guys, have fun. :rolleyes: It's not going in the right direction and the only ones you can blame, is yourselves. :(

Re: Clutchless trans
 

Exactly. I can't find any valid reason (today, not twenty years ago) that the index spreads are as much as two tenths apart. I don't care how it's cut, split the difference, go to the top or go to the bottom numbers, as Mike stated, the auto trans racers have covered a lot of ground and there is no longer a need to have a spread. And if that's the case, put 'em all together.
Heads up runs are what I and the fans crave. Less classes is what NHRA wants and the same with sponsors. Pinks all out is popular for a reason!

Ed,
SS/H '70 AMX = 315 x 9.5 + 170 = 3160

Re: Clutchless trans
 

For the record I would rather not have any more gadgets. However, the toothpaste is already out of the tube because the automatics already have them and I would like to think it is a reasonable request to have a more equitable way of competing for a good light. On that note, is there anyone, I mean anyone who would argue that having an adjustable button release is not an advantage? It seems like more of a Nintendo game instead of driving to me, but hey they are allowed to do it, so why would they show up to a gun fight with a knife? NHRA allows me a ported head and no matter how much of a purist I may or may not be, I have to be able to compete so I have ported heads. Sorry, that's the way it goes sometimes.

In fact, I totally understand the notion of a button release for the clutch being adverse to someone's way of thinking, but how would those people feel about making the automatic racers put their release button on the brake pedal linkage? Can you imagine the phone calls to Glendora over that one. :)

Re: Clutchless trans
 

IF the Sticks and Automatics were to be combined,would the horsepower factors be rated the SAME,or would there still be different ratings depending on transmission type for the same engine?

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Let's see.
In the 327 with a 299 stick 307 auto factor in SS/H would require the H car to add 76 lbs and get a .10 back on the index. Pretty close.

My combo:
350 with a 314 stick 327 auto factor in GT/A would require me to add 104 lbs to get a tenth back on the index. A little rough for me with a 2700 lb car ,but pretty close again. It's not a deal breaker for me at least.

Just thinking out loud here but maybe it's worth considering identifying the combos with a difference between the stick and auto factor and then meeting in the middle to consolidate the classes and see where we are. Also it will give the auto racers who have been hit hard by the AHFS a little relief while we see what happens.

So the guy with the 327 auto removes 38 lbs and the stick guy adds 38lbs and we go racing with the same index. I does not sound terrible or inequitable so far.

Oh yeah. Not totally wild about the clutchless trans. I would do it if I have to but I would rather consolidate the classes.

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I don't agree with somethings the auto get to use, but there is nothing that can be done. it's been that way for along time. I choose to run a stick because my dad ran a stick car his whole life. I was raised on it. I'm good friends with alot of auto guys and I ask them after you let go of the button what do you after that. It's just alot more fun IMO to drive a stick car.

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"That's a FACT Jack" ;)