CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Two CJ's kicked at Indy. Illegal dish in pistons!! Talk about not letting the SS'er race either!! Don't know the whole story, but I'm sure it'll come soon!!

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

if this is true, and the motors haven't been out of the car...............there sure will be egg on Ford's face

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

From what I hear, two of Hajek's got kicked and one didn't. Ford people are going nuts! Love it! Allen Patterson got his motor sealed today too, so that will be interesting in and of itself. Anyone there should bring your lawn chairs down to the barn. There's quite a show taking place..and probably tomorrow too!!

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

There go the trucks for 2010!

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

How could it be that 2 of Hajek's cars got booted and the other didnt. All three havent ever had the engines out of them since they came from the factory? :confused:

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

so does that mean that "maybe??" the next race that they will have to provide an engine with a head pulled BEFORE they can compete???--- comp 387

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

I can't imagine how they are different, since they are factory pieces, but the dish size in two of the three engines were not correct to specification. The way I see it, Ford's attention to detail is second to none. i.e. illegal.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Ford will just change the spec's so they will legal at the next race.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

I also know that this is one reason why the new Challengers will never compete with the CJ's. You can't compete with a supercharger!!! I don't blame Chrysler a bit for screaming about this one.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

OK I don't know why I am posting in a FORD thread but I heard they were not factory (never out of the car) motors.

The name Roush was mentioned.

Of course this is as big a rumor as this whole thread.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

No rumor. People standing there at Indy witnessing as it is happening.

If you don't know why you're posting, don't then.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Wonder how the warrenty works on a deal like that?

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Dumb question but is this the first time for tear down of a new CJ?

BTW Mike tell everybody good luck.

Sean

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

According to the guys in the Ford pits, the spec Ford sent in is 118 and theirs was 116.5.

Patsy

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

I do know a lil info on these cars. how about posting a real name......instead of hiding internet racer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Well who won a/sa?

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

your reply doesnt make sense. Reread what YOU said, and what I said...Puff be gone. back to the topic

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

very good question David.


Stephen Johnson #2162
Horace Johnson #2162
SS/D 427 Ford Fairlane NHRA-IHRA

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

The CJ that won A/SA was not one of the ones tossed, so he won.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

If I read correctly Jimmy Holzman got tossed. Chad Holzman didn't.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

If they tossed a couple CJ cars,then how can the other ones be fine?Aren't they all the same except for weight and transmission type?



Sorry,this question has already been asked.


And it sure does seem silly to worry about what kind of pistons a car has when it has a supercharger on it.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

In the old days.....ALL class winners got torn down and if they were found illegal the r/up got torn down...and if they were found illegal......there was no class winner! Been there and done that as the saying goes....If a car is not torn down it's obvioulsy considered legal......

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Al - good point. We got tossed at the KC National Open last fall b/c after we reset our GTE record, two combustion chambers measured incorrect. One by a meer .4 of a cc also. Sent the heads back to Dave Layer and he said they checked fine. The short of it...we have heads that make us SHORT on power just so they will pass NHRA inspection. It DOES matter what equipment is used.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

I posted on this burette problem earlier this year and it didn't get much attention.
I checked two of NHRA's burette's against mine and all three were different. NHRA's high dollar/quality burette's had a differents of point eight cc's on a 100 cc's which is alot when your checking 150-200 cc port volume.
I googled on the internet and it says class A burette's (best) only have to be within one cc to be with in spec's.
Thanks
Jerry

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

>>>"class A burette's (best) only have to be within one cc to be with in spec's"

"within one cc" when measuring what size volume??? That is the defining criterion...

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

"within one cc" when measuring what size volume??? That is the defining criterion...
__________________
Bill

Within one cc on a 100 cc's or 1 percent.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

I've used a burette that I got from PMS (Pudgy Pendergrass) in San Antonio, Texas 210-681-2405 for over 20 years, and I swear it checks the same as any NHRA Tech burette. I have been through teardown numerous times and have never had a problem. Give him a call if you want the real thing. Its tough enough to do this stuff without having a SNAFU with the measurements.

RJ

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

The first thing that must been done in any measurement system is calibrate it! For anyone in the barn today, check for calibration stickers on the measuring equipment being used. If there is none then the gage is suspect. However, that also means that all gages being used by anyone must be calibrated in order for everyone to be on a level playing field. As an example, I have been in some garages/ shops and the guys are using calipers that are decades old and look like they have been through hell; let alone been calibrated.

The second thing in a measurement system is Gage R&R (gage repeatability & reproducibility). Basically it is a method of determining the amount of variation that a measurement system has in relation to the specification/ tolerance of the feature being measured. The end result is given in the form of percentage of error in relation to the tolerance of the specification. What is the tolerance that NHRA assigns to combustion chamber or piston volumes? The specification is a minimum value; you can be bigger, not smaller. How much bigger or what is the high limit of the specification? From that point you can determine what the gage error can be.

Just some food for thought.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Did they pull a rod a piston out of these engines? If not, how can they accurately measure the CCs of a dish in a piston that is sitting at a 45 degree angle in the block?

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Pete is pretty much dead on with his comments. I worked in a Navy calibration lab for over 18 years up until I retired. There are tolerences involved in precision equipment and they NEED TO BE CHECKED at intervals. I always made sure my stuff was correct as I brought my own checking equipment with me to the races. I did NOT rely on IHRA's tools. How many have been bounced over the years for .001 of an inch ? A dial indicator tolerance is plus or minus .001 in its self. The moral of the story is you HAVE to allow some amount over or under depending what engine part and spec your dealing with for heat build up, "pilot error" (the tech guy), and not build these things to the "enth degree" or dead on. Its the responseability of the racer/engine builder to make certain the head is allowed enough "wiggle" room for C.C.s or the valve diameter is correct, enough deck height is allowed for wear and tear, rod streach (they do streach a small amount with duty cycles) or enough room is allowed for any other engine part. NHRA and IHRA always had problems with valve springs being at or under the correct pressure back when the stockers had to run the factory specs. Pete is also correct in that the plastic burettes are JUNK. Buy a glass one that is certified from someplace like Fisher Scientific or another precision tool supplier. I remember when I was cutting some heads for C.C..s (428 CJ) and had them all at 68.2 to 68.4 C.C.s for a good engine builder (Ford guy) here in Md. I gave them back and about a day later he screamed that I ruined them. Well he had used a plastic burette to check them and they showed up being a full c.c. short with his burette. I knew better because my burette was glass and I checked it at work when I was working for the Department of Defense (Navy). I proved it to him and his customer went on to win the Gatornationals stock eliminator that year in his Orange 428 CJ Mustang. It passed tech with flying colors. Moral of story....use certified tools and allow wiggle room. Its YOUR responsability.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

It can be done....I did it all the time. I checked the winner of the quick 32 S/S at the US Class Nationals several years ago and my measurement was "Dead on" the manufacurer spec. and matched the engine guide in the car at a 45 degree angle while leaning over the fender. If I remember correctly it was Randy Manns car. It was an Olds engine in a Camaro or Firebird (cant remember which) SS/GT car. It even surprised him.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

RJ you said your burette checked the same as NHRA Tech's burette. The NHRA Tech's burrette's (2) I checked from our Division did not check against each other as I said there was a .8 cc differance.

I tried to call you when I was in Pipe Creek, I have the wrong phone number.

Jerry

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

The given tolerance for a burette is 1%. On a 100 C.C burette that is 1.0 (one point zero) C.C.s. Reason alone to allow some wiggle room when milling your heads. Not only the burette is involved but the medium usuallly used is alcahol and is tempature sensitive. A hot cyl. head will not check the same as a head at room temp. The alcahol will expand when the head is hot and give you a smaller reading. Some go so far as putting the head into a cooler full of ice to bring down the temp of the head. 1/2 or even a full C.C over the spec. will not slow down the car. The engine will never know it.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

So, if we allow 10% G R&R the minimum tolerance that that system could measure would be 8 cc's!! Now that may seem ridiculous but that’s the results of the calculations. So how much error do you want to allow in the system? If the tech. stated that your combustion chamber was .5 cc small then that measurement was within the error of the two gages.

Also keep in mind some features are more difficult to measure than others. The most difficult are visual attributes or specifications. One persons course finish is another’s fine. A color (one of the most difficult) may look light blue to one person and medium blue to another.

The budget for the measuring system plays a big role. Like anything else, you get what you pay for.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

I was reading post and going to make basically same statement as you Terry.It does'nt matter what your
burett or mic's or caliper shows the tech man goes by their tools reading it's our responsibilty to leave
room in our measurements for difference in gauges,just like lbs per cubic inch classes it's your responsibility to claim correct cubic inches.I had customer truck pulling406'' limit so everyone built400sbc
30 over he got pumped 406.7 would'nt pass so I had to destroked cranks to 3.735 stroke deck block.007
rebalance actaully ran better then because crank had stroke&index equalized then.
I heard of some Dodges that got bounced at Indy several years ago few minutes later truck owner supposedly came up on golf cart w/ the updated specs that had been faxed to him from mopar so they were legal.Has anyone else heard that story before?
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

I would have thought that if it was a specs mistake that ford would have gotten them reinstated by this morning. It may have cost them a few GT500's for Compton's kids or something but I figured it would have been done. I would think that a manufacturer advertising and selling a "stock eliminator legal" car that didn't pass tech would be opening the door for a ice class action lawsuit. If they don't get the spec changed, then all of these motors have to be taken apart to check for legality. If I were NHRA, I would not change the spec without a reevaluation of the HP rating

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

The problem with a P&G pump is its not that accurate (dead on). Cranking speed of the starter/voltage of the battery and the cam shaft over lap has a little to do with the reading not to mention the temp allowance used. Normally if one is used correctly and all othe varibles are there (cranking speed, etc.) the P&G pump will show a little UNDER the actual cubic inches. It all depends on the person using the pump and his/her experience. Not all P&G pumps measure the same either.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

When a written quality assurance policy is not specified there is a huge gray area for interpretation. The end result can be good parts that are rejected or bad parts that are accepted. Sound familiar? This is why written quality procedures are developed and issued to all companies and/ or people that have to conform to them.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

How does anyone know If these motors were opened up and played with??

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

exactly why NHRA should not just change the spec with a stroke of the pen at Ford's behest