Late model muscle car's
 

OK, I'm finally getting out of the stone age. I drove a 2008 Mustang GT/CS with an auto trans last week. All stock except Roush air intake. It had 3.55 rear. I couldn't believe how fast it was and was most impressed with the way the 5-speed auto trans performed. I mean, it didn't even slow down 5 RPM when it shifted from 1st to 2nd, it just kept accelerating. The last Mustang I drove was 3-4 years ago and it was a '98 (?) 4v Cobra. It was a lot of fun and would rev real high but had no bottom end. This 300 HP 3V '08 would probably blow it away. I have my eye on getting a 2010 Shelby if my new business works out. 540 HP w/ a 6-speed in a Shelby for $46K seems like a bargain to me. Thanks Evan.

Went to the track last night for the first time in over a year and drove a friends '06 Mustang GT with 3.55's and a 5-speed manual. It has a chip, intake and cat-back. It also has hard, worn out standard issue tires that need replacing. Obviously it took some finesse to launch it. I went 14.38 @ 101 MPH (it was 111 degrees out earlier in the day). Previously the owner has seen 104 and some change in cooler weather. He's got a total of $8500 in the car as it was an impounded vehicle. That's a mid-low 13 second street car with a/c with some ET drag slicks. Those MPH he runs are as good or better than my last "hot" street car, a '72 'Cuda with a pretty decent 340 and it sure wasn't as nice of a driver as this Mustang.

And the big disappointment was our friends '09 Challenger SRT8 with a 6-speed (all stock) and 3.08's in the rear. It was the first time down the track. Traction was an issue but even so, the MPH was only 98. That's only showing around 300 HP at the flywheel instead of 425 HP. I suggested he take it to the dealer because somethings not right. Anybody see any SRT8 Challengers on the track yet (stock)? A friend of mine in California has a SRT8 300 and can run 13-teens almost anytime. I'm not sure of his MPH.

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I was at at test & tune Friday with my friends Super Gas car. On a whim I decided to make a pass in my new Challenger. 5.7 motor, 3.06 rear and auto. Left spare tire in and 3/4 tank of gas. left the car in drive, did not manual shift. 969 mileson car. BONE STOCK (at this time)
60 ft 2.2177
330ft 6.1947
1/8 9.391
76.66 MPH.

Car seemd to really start pulling in high gear. No doubt the 3.06. I hope to get some 1/4 miles times soon. First time down the strip since super stock in 1983. FUN FUN!!

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www.wallaceracing.com converts 9.39 / 76.66 to 14.67 & 94.98 in the quarter mile

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There was a guy on Moparts a couple weeks ago who actually sold his new Challenger because it was only running 101 or thereabouts, and then complained because he lost $9500 when he sold it. There does seem to be a wide variance in performance of the SRT-8's.

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The car companies can talk about close production tolerances all the want, the the power out puts are all over the place. I have dyno tested bone stock LS1 GM cars from 275 rwhp to 349. LT1 cars from 225 rwhp to 302. Have seen virgin A4 LS1 cars run everything from 14.20s to 12.80s here at Tulsa. One freak bone stock manual trans 2000 Camaro SS (except the PCM tuning) makes 349 rwhp and runs 12.30s. I have a customer in Houston that ran 11.55 with his A4 2002 TA, never had a valve cover off. But, some won't even go 13s. I don't doubt Ford and MOPAR are the same way.

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How many have had to work on this late model "FOOL REJECTED" computerized trash? I cant even SEE the spark plugs on the passenger side of my '91 Corvette much less change them without cutting the fender and A/C box off with a chain saw first. Give me an early model carb/non-computer car anyday. I used to race a '69 Corvette and at least I could work on it without an electronics degree. No wonder Detriot is bankrupt.

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I do. All day, every day. They are faster (not your '91 Vette, but the newer stuff), cleaner and use less fuel to do it.

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There we go bangin on Detroit like it is the fault of the automakers that a-holes like the commander in chief want 300 mpg next year or else. Why do you think our current domestic automobiles are a complete mess to work on. Because theres so much stuff jammed into them for the emissions and fuel economy not to mention the can't do without items as power mirrors, GPS and other options that generally suck. Ever wonder how a vehicle with plastic fenders, hoods and door skins could weigh 3700-3900 lbs? The whole thought process is *** backwards. Mr. Wright-you bring up a valid point about the inconsistencies of same vehicle output-always baffled me how that happens.

Steve

Just remember that alot of our politicians drive foreign cars. Is that sending us message or what!

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I have had several new ls1 camaro's bone stock down to the paper filter run 12.90's at 110, 6speed cars. A simple gear change and sticky tires we've gone 12.30's at 110. The ls1 to me is an incredible engine and it flies. The new mustang and challenger are very impressive as well. The new camaro seems like it is going to be very quick too. I can't wait to see a new camaro stocker!

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Sounds reasonable. In '94 I bought a new 25th Anniversary T/A w/ LT-1 auto trans and 3.23's. Bone stock I got it to 13.96 @ 99.6. Never could break 100. There was always a few others at the track that were also stock and there's were usually .2-.3 slower. They all doubted mine was stock.

I agree on the LS1's. Ive never driven anything but a 5.3L truck but for what it was, I was impressed. A friend of mine just bought a '06 Z06. He's foolishly :rolleyes: said I could take it for a spin. Can't wait!

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:D Thanks for the info. I know working on these is no fun, that is why have waited until now to buy a "performance?" car. But the B5 blue classic has already been a ball of fun in only 3 weeks!! Would I rather have a 70 Cuda with ANY motor. Well Yea, but I am still happy.:p

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I feel sorry for you for having to work on this stuff all day........my 91 Vette Convert. isnt the fastest but 13.90's 14.0's at 99 MPH (stab and steer) is OK. Its an all stock 20,000 mile L98 with a 2.59 rear gear, 700-R4 Trans except for a Hyper chip. 27 MPG on a trip.....24 MPG running around. Its no LS-1 but its OK.

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The new stuff is not any harder to work on than the crap they turned out in the late '70's-early '80-s. Anyone ever change plugs in a V-8 Monza?

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Yes. Yes I have. And it wasn't nearly so bad as changing the plugs in my 98 Firebird 3800 Series II V6. Or a 78 400 Pontiac powered TA. Or a late model (90 and up or so) Cadillac transverse mounted V8 FWD (back 4 plugs). Or a 68 Cougar or Mustang 428.

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as much as i may like gm ( i was raised to think that nothing else existed or was worth messing with.. i have since learned the errors of my ways).. the new camaros are an awesome performance package but i predict that it will suffer the same fate as the last incarnation of the GTO .. thats just my opinon though.. its sad to see gm in the shape they're in ... i wonder how long before somebody starts calling my rambler a fiat....

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Thats why I like a 1962 or 63 409 SS.....LOL

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I own a bone stock 02 Z06 corvette 405hp, I borrowed Frank Genevesi's helmet and took it down the track at one of Dave Ley's S/SS race at Atco. I neglected to turn off the traction control, it spun the tire, cut out cylinders and still went 13.339 @ 110. 2.293 60' 5.966 330' 8.851 1/8 . Drove back home to Long Island at 75mph getting 22mpg/highway. Tell me that a 60's muscle car could do that.

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The performance of the new cars can be impressive.

However, show me a 60's muscle car that cost 1/2 as much as a house, took 5-6 years to pay for, with payments as high as a mortgage payment, and required service at a dealer that charged $75 per hour and had $100K worth of tools and equipment.

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that much is true.. you can hardly ever have your cake & eat it to... but i still consider my 86 Buick Grand National a modern car ( even though its 23 years old) & its bone stock performance numbers were on par or better than most of the current performance muscle... too bad nobody paid more attention to that sleepy old folks car company when the big wigs kinda let them have do whatever & then shut them down after they saw the animal they created .. & hardly no marketing on them either.. maybe its just as well too.. helps add to the value ;) .. but who in the 80's was gonna pay more for some v6 with that new fangled fuel injection when they could get a v8 with a carb for less $ HA! anyways...

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amen !!!!!!!!!

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Wow, are you guys missing it. Alan, you can't buy anything at 1970s prices anymore! A big-block muscle car of the '60s was $3,500-5,000 depending on what you got. It would run 14s, 13s or 12s with some work. The new Camaro V-6 will run low 14s. With old cars you got poor mpg, constantly tuning (plugs, wires, carb adjustment, points, etc.) and not much comfort compared to today's cars. And a house back then was $25,000-40,000. Today's cars cost $25,000-50,000 and a house is four-10 times that. Plus, today's cars last twice as long as cars of the '60s and '70s did. You can get 150,000-200,000 miles with a little care. You were lucky if you got 110,000-mile from older cars. So, one could argue that you get twice the product for same (albeit time-inflated) price. Could you imagine at $3 per gallon if your hot rod got 6-9 mpg? No one would own one. Chalk one up for EFI. Now you can have a fun car and get 20-plus mpg. Boy, technology really sucks.

Modern EFI is a breeze, it's all nuts and bolts. So what if you control fuel and spark with a computer or re-flash tool? I can't speak for the GM cars, but the Fords are relatively easy. The last carb car I had was a '84 Monte SS and there were more vacuum lines than actual engine parts. It sucked to work on!

How could anyone possibly complain about the performance of modern-era muscle cars? My Wife's 2007 Mustang GT (automatic) went 13.28 at 105 in good air with only a re-flash of the computer. It cost under $30,000. Alan, what house are you buying for $60,000? That would mop up just about any muscle car of the '60s. Now, I love '60s and '70s muscle cars and agree that you can't compare the style and character to new cars, but as far as performance and comfort goes there is no contest. You will not get the same civilian reaction cruising a '70 Road Runner or '69 Camaro or Mustang as you will a new car, you can thank the 5-mph bumpers for that. The styling on the older cars was just plain awesome.

I recently put a blower kit on the GT and with street slicks went mid-11s at 116 mph. That's with stock gears, exhaust, converter and it still gets 24 mpg on the highway.

Jeff, BTW, the new Shelby will run mid-11s/120-plus in good air with sticky tires. I drag tested one and it will be out in the next issue of MM&FF.

Evan

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I would STILL rather BUY a 1966-67 Corvette coupe to drive daily with a 327/350 HP engine than have a new car given to me ! Id take the new car and sell it as fast as I could and use it for a real car.. My 73 Corvette with L-82 350 and 400 turbo w/ 3.55 gears, and P275-60 X 15 28 inch tall rear tires used to get 22-23 MPG without a computer, EFI, OR an overdrive transmission and it was air conditioned with PS, PB, PW. All 3550 lbs (with out driver) of it. I could at least change the spark plugs on it with no problem and there was not a metric bolt or nut on it. I have to admit that John Lingenfelter did my Q-Jet back in the day and I installed a Pro-tronics magnetic pick up to eliminate the points and condencer so that probably helped. The carb came off of my SS/IA Camaro and never changed the jets or metering rods.

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P.S. If I had the advantage of a 200-R4 or a 700-R4 installed in my 73 Corvette I probably could have picked up 3 to 4 more MPG. Thats as good as my 91 gets with all of the bells and whistles and metric crap on it.. All it takes is a little work to have a nice fuel efficent ride instead of monthly payments. No its probably not going to happen with a 454 Chev, 455 Pont. , 426 Hemi, 460/428 Ford.

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I worked at "Tune-Up Master's" in 1979. V-8 Monza? Simple. Get a really long bar, wedge it between the exhaust manifold and gearbox and stretch the motor mount and place a block in place to hold it while you change the driver side plugs. Piece of cake.

The last guy I knew that had a '68 327/350 'Vette sold it. Why? It was so dang hot in the interior you couldn't stand driving it if you went over 45 minutes.

Evan - thanks for the tip. That's bone stock with ET Streets? 3.55 gears? What kind of launch / shift RPM? I'm assuming this was all pretty "non-abusive" testing?
I'd bet the 605 HP option is over kill in your opinion?

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68 vette's were some of the worst ever produced.....thats no secret. 69's were much improved. The one that cooked me the most was a big block 427/435 HP roadster. 4 1/2 MPG with 4:88 rear but ran 10.90's in street trim except for 8 inch slicks. Never had the heads off the engine.

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Alan, I don't know what houses cost in your part of the country, but in my neighborhood
they run $700-850K. I guess I could buy a nice Vet, Challenger & Mustang and stay
under that amount of money. Oh and out here in LA LA land the dealers at up to around
$90-110 per labor hour.

Yes when my wife retires in another couple of years we are selling out and moving out
of state!

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A decent house is about $100K on 1/2 acre. Around here $700K will get you 7000+ sq feet on 30 acres. In fact, around $200K will get you around 3000 sq feet or more on a couple of acres. I paid $70K for mine 15 years ago. The market is depressed, it'll bring maybe $115K now.

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Alan, thank you for the information. I don't know what I would ever do with a
7000 sq ft house or 30 acres. Jeff Lee is the only person I know with enough
kids to make use of a 7000 sq ft house.

I'll be darn happy with a 1800-2000 sq ft house on maybe one acre, just enough
room to add a nice shop to the back of the property.

We will probably look outside the Denver area since we have children & grandchildren there.

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An Auto, Chally 08, Stock tune CAI, 13.24 is best @ 13? cant remeber.

EVERY Person I have seen race a 6 gear chally has at least once in the night bopped 3rd ? I have no idea why. Bad drivers most likely. But every track Im playing with the SRT8 at someone has an 09 6sp and wants to grudge, none has won, 13.4 is the fastest Ive seen out of one.

Thats with the stock gears and a 20's

The 09's have an ACTUAL LSD unit, mine has "modulated" traction control. And spin is a big issue on stock rubber.

Just my 2 cents. (Ive got an armrest full of timeslips so if you want actual times I can look)

A BIG Item on these is that they suck oil into the intake, then burning that (or not burning it) throws the sensors all wonky, the computer responds, oddly, I actually had one of the "BIG" names in SRT8 performance tell me "My Computer was bad" and they couldnt tune the car, after trying for some 4 hours , I was near them at the time so I thought I would see what they thought they could do, a call to Mopar and they told me about this issue, my sons long arm, a shop vac, some carb cleaner and a $99 catch can, problem solved. Just a thought, it caused problems ( a lot less severe ) for me.

Cheers

Chris

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don't forget the EPA....

btw, i DO work on late model stuff all day....

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could be worse (i think), they could call it a mercedes...:)

what model "fiat" ya got?