AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

It looks like it will be a very diverse class run off with three real cars [Cradduck, Shaul, and Pendarvis] vs two paper cars [Barton and Miele].

It will be two MoPars in the finals is my prediction.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

What's real about a 1971 big block Barracuda with a available ONLY on a 1970 340 AAR Cuda scoop on it?

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

RJ it was also a six barrel option and a four barrel option when the shaker was orded but was out of stock, but agred it was mostly instaled with the 340 six barel. Just like the 1998 LT1 cars.

I still think it will be the crate motor Hemi vs the max wedge with the '64 car with the win.

Larry

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

OK, thanks for the explanation. I'd just never seen one, was it also a 4 bbl. option if shakers were out in 1970?, and how does it work compared to the shaker?

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Are all of them running in AA/SA for sure? I thought Shaul was entered in A/SA. I hope he runs in AA/SA! I like the pressure. I guess I'll have to remove all of the paper weights from the trunk.:rolleyes:

And how about Ken? Are you going Ken? I didn't catch up with you at Atco to find out how you ran. Hope to see you there.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

David,

I will be there, but not sure how well I will run. The engine problems are behind me I hope, but now I can't hook the dam thing. I wish we would have got one more run.

I think John will be running A/SA, but it would be cool to see him in AA.

I was thinking how cool it would be to have a AA challenge at Indy this year. Maybe we can get some feed back from other AA's and see if we could put something together.

David, I don't know about your car, but my paper car can give nasty paper cuts. I think I will have to put caution signs on the fenders.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Same deal with the Challengers. That's why you see so many different combos with the fiberglass 1970 Challenger T/A hood. The T/A scoop is superior to the shaker. Don't know how the AAR hood compares to the shaker.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

...08' Cobra Jets got your ears on?....paper Mopars / paper Shelbys / 08 Cobras......sorry, you GM guys got no paper cars

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Ken,
I agree, that would be really cool. How many cars normally show in AA/SA? And how many A/SA cars would make the jump into AA/SA? Then the next question would be what about the 4-speed guys? I'm sure that will come up too. NHRA would never allow it at Indy but it would be a good thought for future shootouts. Can't leave them out!

The biggest thing that might scare some people away would be the fear of not qualifying for the bracket race since the index is so steep.

If people are into having a big shootout I will call our vendors to see what they can throw into the pot. Lets try to get something happening.

Paper Boy

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

I wasn't even born yet but I was told that only Challenger's came with those hoods.

The Paper Shredder might be illegal.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

So Larry, your car is a "paper car" also?

You've been crying about these so called "paper cars" for how many years now? Back in 2001, you were complaining about Lance Line and Matt Morgan. Then you started on Bill Hawk and Ken Miele, and now apparently Barton's car is a paper tiger too.

Here's a question. How many of these "paper cars" have deprived you of a class win?
Or, how many of these "paper cars" have prevented you from winning a national event?

Maybe you should worry about your own stuff instead of crying about three cars in the entire country.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Paper cars are not the problem; bogus HP factors are the problem.

NHRA added HP to the "paper" NASCAR Hemi before it ever hit the track, but these 2008 Mustangs with a 425HP factor and a 700+HP engine continue, unabated (one was the #1 qualifier at the Div V Points race this weekend.)

I can't IMAGINE that anybody with anything BUT one of those blown, injected, 4-valve Mustangs thinks they have a prayer in AA/SA (or, stick) if they choose to show up for a Class elimination, or "shootout."

At 140+ MPH, they're sure gonna be hard to stay ahead of... no matter how "soft" they leave.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

David "Paper Boy" Barton; I believe John will have his car in AA/SA to protect it from running 1.15 under at Norwalk. Last week at N.J. John went 1.21 under in elimination, so I believe he will protect the combination by running in AA/SA. I still believe its going to be a great class to watch, Good Luck to all.

There is an interesting picture a few years back in the National Dragster of the best appearing car at a Division One Points race, the picture has a SS/FA 1970 'Cuda 440 six pack, Allen Dame car owner, Bob Lang Division One director, and Bruce Bachelder NHRA Tech.

What is a "Paper Car": one that was never built, or that the public could never purchase.
Paper Cars: 1998 LT1 Camaro, 428 fords with 2.200 crank pin size, L 88 carburetor, dove heads, .527 lift cams, bell housing for a C4 to a FE block, almost forgot Eldebrock Aluminum Heads. Nascar Hemi with a street intake, aka The Short Track Manifold. If they are going to race the Nascar deal at least put the correct manifold on it. The 08 Corbra is a real car its way under factored but a real car you can buy for around $75000

Mr Heath I have lost to Lance Line, John Foxbower, Mike Winke and Marty Burke, for class AFTER the discovery of the .527 lift cam and the replacement carb. Ken Miele out drove me then out ran by .02 the first round a class at Gainesville one year. Ken beat me with the real stuff.

I believe you are correct I just need to work on my stuff. I would appreciate your help, I have a 1972 Dodge Charger with a 400 4sp. I was wondering what class that it would figure?

Thanks for your Help.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

I don't have a dog in this hunt but I think what I am about to write rings true; is there any combo that makes the power NHRA or IHRA factors it? If all the combos made the power they were factored the high hp cars will dominate right? Quit worrying about the bs rules package NHRA created and race. When the paper cars and underfactored cars run too fast if they are legal weight and run anywhere other than Division 6 or 7 they will be factored.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

>>>"is there any combo that makes the power NHRA or IHRA factors it?"

No.

Is there any you can name (other than the 2008 CJ's) that make nearly THREE HUNDRED HORSEPOWER more than their factor?

Name one... please.

It's a matter of degree...

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

I'm with Ken and Dave it would be cool to have a AA/S and AA/SA shootout. I would supply a bottle of Kentucky's finest to the winner. Everyone could put in an extra $100 each with an 80/20 split.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Serious question:

Quite a few Mopar guys have shown me "paperwork" on this T/A hood deal, but nothing direct from Chrysler. How come none of the top-of-the-line diecast companies, which go to great lengths to re-create muscle cars accurately, ever build a Hemi or 440x6 Challenger with a T/A hood? And How come you never see one restored that way at a car show or on Barrett-Jackson?

Also, was the AAR hood an option too on a 440, because I've seen that deal too?

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Larry, what is the correct intake manifold for the NASCAR Hemi?

On a different note, if there is a shootout Al Carp said he will put up $500 and so will I.

Just to clear things up, we run the NASCAR combo because NHRA said we're allowed to. And because Al's '70 Hemi Challenger was hit 215 pounds. I don't make the rules, I just race by them. If it were up to me I'd like to run the crossram, except I'd probably have to weigh 3900.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

I had a semi factory deal (had to buy the car but everything else was free) in 1971 along with Gene Collins on a Dodge Challenger and it came with a 383 and a shaker hood like Dave Boertmans Rod Shop car. The word as I heard it later that year is the shaker hoods became hard to get and several Challengers came thru with the T/A hood. Never saw one until many years later though. I never heard anything on the 'Cudas with the AAR hood. Its no different than the .527 cam on the 428 CJ's or anything else that is allowed these days. NHRA allowed the hoods years ago so they are allowed to run them. Not much different than Edelbrock heads on 396 Camaros and 390/428/427 Fords. Not to mention the NASCAR Hemi. Its not what is stock....its what is allowed these days is all that counts. The single 4 Hemi had a low rise bath tub shaped intake manifold with a 3 barrel carb (remember those?). I have the numbers at home but good luck in ever finding the correct pieces. .

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

I have an original nascar short track intake and carb. The intake is a dual plane type and the carb is a vacuum secondary with lemans type bowls. The carb is listed in the holley spec manual as a 1965 hemi nascar. The intake looks just like the later crate hemi single carb intake but is made from mag.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Well now I know why I haven’t been getting my newspaper. The “paper boy” is out drag racing. Wow what would that combo run with the cross ram? Hey let’s see if we can get NHRA to approve that. It’s only paper Right? On serious note, we all follow the rules that are given to us. That’s why my cuda sits in garage (3825 LBS A/SA) .

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

I forgot to mention the car in the picture for best appearing had an AAR hood on it. A picture is always worth a 1000 words.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

We have always been mistified by these big block cars with the 340 glass hoods. I had two friends that owned 340 Six Pack cars, a yellow AAR 'Cuda and a Plum Crazy T/A Challenger. The often repeated line has always been they were factory installed but has anyone ever seen an original big block car with one in a collection? Wouldn't they be a rare car to collect?

We DID in fact have at least two 1970 455 Stage 2 Buicks in my neighborhood.

Maybe they should be in Stock Eliminator? ;-)

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

We DID in fact have at least two 1970 455 Stage 2 Buicks in my neighborhood.

Maybe they should be in Stock Eliminator? ;-)



Now this would be neat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Larry,

You have discovered NHRA's little secret. It was even in the National Dragster (Mike Dunn's column?) how Fuller's Top Fuel car has a better chassis than some of the other cars because he is short and the car is built different allowing more flex in the front half of the chassis. Maybe NHRA should have all the drivers weigh (use 200?) and have to add any "short" weight in the drivers seat area. Just think, you and Jeff T. might be the only guys tossing weight out of their cars!!

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

In reference to George Fitzpatrick's 'cuda being parked...that is the real tragedy as NHRA waters down what is a production car....real cars, real people are parked because of "paper"...put them in FX, A B or C

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

I stand corrected....Its possable the 3 barrel carb was a 1964 piece and not a 1965 or was there a difference in the short track combo vs the Daytona (long track) version ?? The 3 barrel Holley was also a vacuum seconday 850 (or 950?) CFM carb. We ran one on a bracket car back in the stone age. I will look it up when I can find the paper work I have stored away.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Larry, before I jump to any conclusions which hood and engine combo do you run?

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Randall and George,

As a SRAC member, I spoke with NHRA (over a year ago) about the factor on the Hemi, and at one point was told that it was going to get a reduction after a two-year period—it never happened. I tried to fight the good fight, but didn't win.

It was also unfair that the 440x6 in the B-Body got hit to the moon, when the A-body with a similar chassis got nothing (had the A-Body been included it could have brought the entire average down). Moreover, NHRA hit the 350 Chevy based on runs make by a Camaro and a Corvette? There is clearly little logic applied at times, and this was brought to the attention of high-ranking NHRA officials, albeit with zero response.

I am certainly not one to bash NHRA because I feel that most of the guys sportsman racers deal with are good people, but it's amazing to me that we could make a few simple changes to "enhance" the sport, yet no one wants to act and make such improvements.

Evan

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

The Nascar intake was a large cross ram and the carb (including the 3 bbl) sat in a 'bathtub' in the middle. We raced one in a mud racing truck in the 80's. If the combo was 430 with that manifold, it would be ok. That thing they make you use was not even made till about 10 or 15 years later. And as for the scoops that came in some of the cars, anything was possible then. How about a blue car with a red interior? The last 69 cop car we sold was that. Or a 69 Coronet R/T Pale yellow, green interior, and a bright red stripe. We had that too. How about a street hemi manifold with inline AFB's that was sunk in the middle like the Titanic. Still got that one. And there are some of the original Nascar manifolds around, just a little hard to find. Anybody need any 'still in the box' 64 Nascar rods. If you ever observe some of the die cast Hemi motors, some of them have a very close model of the single 4bbl manifold on them.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

71 'cuda 440 six pack with shaker hood

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCPhoto.asp?ID=181491

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Jeff, what about the mag intake I have? You're saying they didn't come out until 1975-1980?

People may have run the bathtub intakes in NASCAR but that is not what they had from the factory. Same with the 3 bbl carb.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Good thing I didn't jump. What is RJ talking about?

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

The papers I have from the AMA (American Manufacturers Association) dated July l964 revised Oct 64 for the 64/65 models clearly spells out the the 3bbl. The manifold I am talking about was very large and covered more of the motor than the 2/4bbl cross ram did. I didn't remember it being magnesium, I thought it was aluminum. I think I know where a couple of them might be. These papers have been sent to NHRA on several occasions over the years. I don't remember another single 4 bbl manifold, but what is the one you have? The crate hemi manifold (dual plane) is one of them. The carbs listed then were the 2973 (1 3/4),2814 (1 11/16) and 3085 (1 3/4 oblong rear). The 4781 is the current double pumper with choke and I guess was allowed along the way. I have had these papers at least 30 years and maybe more. The cam was .540 and dual springs.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Thank you Evan, I know you have tried. It is what it is. Hey I can still run the four speed. I know you would like that.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Just so those of you who have never run up on the mountain can appreciate how fast the '08 Cobra Jets are, the A/SA car driven by Chad Holzman ran 10.51 at 133 mph on Sunday in air that most of you probably can't appreciate. My Performair said the barometer was 24.15" absolute, temp of 70 degrees, 44% relative humidity with a vapor pressure of .33 and a barometric pressure of 8500 feet. This is actually pretty good air for Bandimere. Using the altitude correction factors, this is a 9.74 et at 143 mph at S.L. The et, while REALLY fast is nothing compared to the MPH. That's the real indicator of the HP these cars can make. Their 60' times were in the 1.41-1.42 range which is soft considreing the ET and MPH. My 'Paper Car' 64 Hemi could only muster an embarrassingly slow 10.92 at 122. That was a measly 1.25 under the index. Guess I just need to work a little harder on the car to find that next 11 MPH.
By the way Larry, I have two original '043' 64 Hemi intakes, the early one was aluminum, the later version magnesium. They clearly were the predecessor to the '66 Street Hemi intake. The 'Bathtub' intake didn't come along until early '65 and were run after the NASCAR ban on the Hemi and SOHC Fords were lifted in '66. They were the Long Track manifolds. Darrell Davis has published a book that details by VIN number the 64 Hemi cars that were built with steel front ends and aluminum scoops and high compression engines, and these were the cars that were shipped to NASCAR and USAC to race. Wesley Roberson spend a week verifying all of this with Chrysler and former NASCAR racers before the last tech revision was listed in the Stock Car Classification Guide. GEEZ, I hope I didn't just wreck the notion of these being Paper Cars!!! I sooo like the sound of it.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

This is what it looks like except its magnesium. Part #2468043.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Dave
I have one of the AAR hood like Dave Pazak ran in stock and Allan Dame ran in super stock.

The six pac car will run AA/SA as a 1970 Cuda, but we don't make power to run that quick and its very difficult to get the car light enough with me being 6'8" and 300 pounds.

I am losing weight and searching for more power. With .467 lift its makes it a little difficult to make a lot of power

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

David, that isn't the one I was thinking of. I will try to get a picture for you.

Re: AA/SA @ Norwalk OH
 

Thanks Jeff. I would love to see one. I have searched on the internet for this stuff but found very few pictures from 64-65. Does anyone have pictures from the assembly line? I have seen some from the '68 cars but nothing on the 64-65 cars.

Larry, are you saying you run the AAR hood with the 440+6?