We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

OK everybody, The -1.40 trigger is taking too long to catch up to all of the "soft" combos out there! Any suggestions? OBTW we're talking Stock and SS!

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

get rid of the AHFS...nobody can define it, including NHRA and it does not work. Use real data, with real people, it is not hard.

Then use realistic HP factors when 'new' cars or combos appear......

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Yes!

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Wow! 3 views and 2 responses in 10 minutes! No, we're not reinventing the wheel, just need to change the instant trigger.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

With todays rules and whats allowed Id say take .5 (1/2) seconds off ALL of the indexes to start with. Then anyone who runs more than .75 inder gets hit with a realistic percentage. (you come up with an amount). But a car with 186 HP will get hit far less than say one with 425 HP if they both go under the same amount. Kind of sucks dosent it !

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

OK, let's hit the indexes .5! Great, that's out of the way now, AHFS trigger goes to .65 under and instant trigger goes to .90 under. Now how do we change the instant trigger? Come on guys get off of your hands!

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Billy,

Views are updated every hour, Be patient, I'm sure many are interested in this thread.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

I had posted something similar to this in the Top Stock forum, but I will repeat it. How does one tell if a car has a fair factor on it or not? Obviously people like Billy Nees, Bob Shaw, Mark Yacavone, etc can tell if a combo has great, so-so, or poor potential. The average racer probably doesn't, in regards to the oddball combinations. I don't have the stats on Bob's Cadillac, but I will use his previous car. L/FIA (then, it's now V/SA) '85 Caprice 262/130 factory, NHRA 155. Until someone builds one, who knows if it would run two seconds under, or only .75-.80 under. Fair factoring is a must, but I don't believe a racer should be penalized for choosing to run a rare/odd/whatever you want to call it combination until the HP penalty is warrented. Not everyone wants to build/buy/race a 302 Mustang, 305 Camaro, late model EFI GM F-body, 396/375 Camaro, etc. Last year, my mother bought a 2000 Monte Carlo. 231 cid, 200 factory, 200 NHRA. One of the above racers may build one for BF/S (14.95 Index). It may run 14.20 or 13.20. How would anyone know if 200 is fair, soft, or hard?

I do agree the AHFS, in it's current state, will never work, and/or take many years to sort out a severely under-rated combination. Here's another problem. Some of us would (maybe) like to see the -1.40 and -1.15 triggers lowered, maybe to, say, -1.25 for automatic HP and -1.00 for the trigger to be evaluated. This would speed the process up of factoring soft combinations.. But, the racers that like to go fast in class, or try and qualify #1 will likely not want these triggers. Plus some combinations that are correctly factored (not soft) will get hit with more HP. If we leave them alone, as I mentioned, it will take quite a while to factor certain combinations, especially if the driver(s) are smart about it. Same things if we were to lower the Indexes, as some have wanted, and left the triggers alone. And, if they were to lower the Indexes AND the triggers, you would have changed nothing, and just made it tougher for some lower-buck racers to qualify and/or run the Index. Lots of issues, and unfortunately, I don't have the answers to make it better, let alone perfect.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

It's funny that you would bring that combo up Mike seeing as I asked to have it put in the guide. Jim Skelly wouldn't even consider putting it in the guide at it's rated HP (130) and we finally agreed to 150 (since factored to 155) and it's still a killer. It just proves my point about NHRA's new policy of putting combos in the guide at their factory rated HP. Now back to the question, what is a fair instant hit?

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

-1.40 for the automatic hit *may* be OK, I don't know. If you were to lower it to, say, -1.25, and they ran Class at a race with really good air, there could be many combinations receive HP on Monday...some of which that really didn't deserve it. Or, I should say, were not severely underfactored. So you would have those racers complaining. If you leave it at -1.40, then it could take a while for a soft combination to get hit enough to be in line with the others in his/her class, unless the driver messes up. I think you wrote in another thread that Bob Shaw would need to get hit three or four more times to really make it fair on the rest. Some would say that would take too long. So no matter what the trigger, many racers will not be happy. I guess if it were up to me, I wouldn't change it too much. Maybe -1.30?

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Mike, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm OK with the -1.40 number I just don't think that the 3.25% number is enough. What I'm looking for is something like 7% or even more.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Billy, if a certain killer car starts out at about 400# heavy, even 7% is not going to do the job.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Ok, now I see what you mean, and what you want to do. By "trigger", I thought you were referring to the -1.40 under mark. At 3.25%, an A/SA 427/425 would get hit 14 HP. Bob's car, at 180 HP in U/SA, gets hit only six. Which, on the surface, doesn't seem fair. Yet, the the U/SA gets more weight added (120 pounds vs the A/SA's 112 pounds). At 4%, it would be 18 HP and 144 pounds in A/SA and 8 HP and 160 pounds in U/SA. 5% is 22 HP and 176 pounds in A, 9 HP and 180 pounds in U. I suppose if one were to want to increase the rate at which a combination receives HP, they would go for a higher percentage (4 or 5%). Would that be too much or not enough? You might poll 100 racers and get 75-80 different opinions and responses. Maybe we need a poll posted on here to see what other's opinions and thoughts are. ME personally, again, I wouldn't change much. They could always make a small change, maybe up to 3.5% and see what that does. BTW, did you get your book in the mail, Billy?

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Mike, yes I did and I'm sorry for not thanking you sooner.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Mark, you're right but it would help to bring it in line twice as soon without obsoleteing a combo overnight.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Billy-- Using your 7% would be harsh at best -- for example our LS1 Firebird is rated at 364 hp -- 7% would be 25 HP at one shot -- or in C/SA trim-- a 9lb class-- thats 225 lbs at one time -- ouch ! ! ! One fabulous day at Atco or somewhere with good air and your toast -- no thanks ! ! ! You're trying to reinvent the wheel in a day .......

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Maybe I'm taking this thread o/t, but here's some ideas for getting some of the soft hp ratings in line:
(I'm not advocating any of them. Just tossing them out)

Implement the AHFS adjustments 4 times a year.

Take away the "free race " during the data period.

Include altitude tracks in the 1.15 and 1.40 trigger (under the factored index)

Lower the "high side " trigger to 1.30 under.


Trouble is , if you implement all the above, you'll have alot more racers making 1000 ' runs in qualifying, and "bracket racing" in class and heads- up runs.
Not good , if you ever want to build spectator appeal for S/SS

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Billy maybe they should institute the "Artie Leong" rule 8.5% in one shot. Seemed to make a lot of people happy at the time.
Lets see now? 425 HP times 8.5%. Thats 36 horsepower in a 9 pound class thats 320 pounds. Sounds like a plan to me.
To be serious. Billy whatever the number guys are still going to play games. And run in braket mode. I just think anyone the goes fast enough for a instant hit sound be torn down. And nhra should use corrected density altitude. For their books We all know running 115 under in a mineshaft is easier than running 115 under at 3000' density altitude.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

how about this.

1.400-1.424 under = 3.5%
1.425-1.449 under = 5%
1.450-1.474 under = 7%
1.475 under or more = 10%

or 1% for every .01 under 1.40

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

I think Chad is on to the right idea. Make it multiple trigger points each with a larger hit on the horse power. I would maybe spread ot out alittle more that what he had. Maybe an extra percent per tenth or some thing like that.
In the case of some thing like a 2:00 under run it should be hit no matter where the run takes place. weather it was a factord track or not.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Jack, OK 25 HP in one shot instead of 2 or 3 shots. 225 lbs will slow your LS-1 down what? 1.8 tenths? Your still 1.22 under. You aren't getting any sympathy here pal.
Art, I still remember being there on that day and I don't remember you getting any sympathy from Jack but t
hen you were in one of those oddball, slow cars and not an LS-1 Firebird.
Chad, something like that might wirk but lower the trigger to -1.35.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Chad's idea is really like what we have in comp-the amount of the adjustment depends on how far under a car runs-this strikes me what people are or should be looking for in adjusting soft combos. The only argument is the increments, say 1.400-1.429 = 3.55; 1.43-1.459 = 5%, well you get the idea, and that's why he added or 1% for every .01. You guys know stock really well and you ought to bring it either the SRAC or get the attention of tech people at NHRA. I'm still optimistic enough to think that if they'd be willing to change something if they can say it's what the racers wanted.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Billy, you are a lot smarter than that so I assume that's a typo-are you going to Atco next week?

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

You can make the trigger/penalty anything you want. The majority of the racers will just adjust to keep under it. Instead worrying about one guy and an odd ball combo you should be looking at the guys who make all their runs at -1.00 under and then get in the cic race and are going -1.25 - 1.40 under. Leaving the event with no run to make a trigger for the AHFS.

The AHFS is doomed to fail because the only incentive for going fast is that you will get HP. If the top 5 qualifiers got paid like the winner and R/U the current rules would have everything sorted out pretty quick. That sounds just as crazy as the AHFS.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

No disrespect meant to anyone, but instead of looking at it like "a 5% hit is 200 lbs or so" how about you just MOVE TO THE HIGHER CLASS!!! Then the only weight you need to move around are those little letters on your window!

Another deep thought brought to you by Zippy! Oh and hi Billy.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Art Leong, I think you are right. When someone runs a number at an altitude factured track that run should be counted. Another thing should be also considered: When a racer makes a 140 + run, how does anyone know if he/she is legal. That is really unfail to the rest of the folks running that combination. I often thought what if someone was running an illegal combination was cheating or any combination. Then they ran it out the back door and it went 140 under. We all know it would get H.P. on Monday. The worst part it was an illegal engine and hurt everyone with that combination. That car should be torn down to make sure the car is legal before to getting H.P. If the car is found to be legal, than he/she gets the record.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

i agree. before any combo gets hp there should be a teardown. whats to stop someone from torpedoing someone else's combo with a blatantly illegal motor

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

There have been years of data compiled. Take all the data, do run completion on 1000' times, and compare everything to a -1.00 under baseline, and adjust *everybody's* HP once now, and be done with it. A ton of work once, and then just fine adjustments after that. How long has it taken to get HP factors even somewhat in line on some combinations using the AHFS? While people didn't like the politics of the pre-AHFS days, at least common sense *could* be applied.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Dave, you've seen my fingers! They're kind of like these blunt objects sticking out of my hands and the I is right next to the O.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Billy -- Its starting to sound like you're making this personal -- its not -- at least for me -- I don't want sympathy from anyone ...........let alone you my friend .

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Isn't that where the scales come in?The guys that run their cars 3-400# heavy aren't looking to get air under the car.BTW I never run my car more than 40# over.The whole rules system regarding the AHFS needs an overhaul,no matter who's feelings get hurt.If mine do in the process I think I can get over it.

Ed F.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Ed, weren't we told a story in Fla. about a certain D2 racer who was told by a certain smily faced D2 employee that he had to remove weight from his car before his next qualifying run?

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Jack, I've always considered you a mentor and a friend and you can always count on two things from me, we can always agree to disagree and I will never feel sorry for you.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Correct Billy,but I bet that's the exception not the rule.

Ed

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Billy You know i am a little older than some on this post so I have seen the changes I have come to the conclusion that this whole index thing is a joke at best......What happened to the performance based national records that were held in high esteem..GONE...In stead of index how about .50 over national records as index...any current national record holder gains instant entry into national events no grading points needed. no adjustment for altitude tracks the record is the index....all national record holders are exempt from hp hits....let the games begin.....Daryl

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Another cenario If like class cars compete say for class at indy no breakout but if they run under national record they become new record holder and have to tear down...even at a divisional meet they should seperate the cheaters form the legal cars...no sandbagging either make anational record mean something again.......D

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Thats how I raced MP back in te 70's, worked then... how bout they add weight to the combo thats too far under.. like the trigger is 115 under for Nat event so if the guy is 145 under, about 300 lbs should get him there...gravity is constant

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

That works too

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Seems pretty simple to me.... weight stickers should note the class minimum AND the class MAXIMUM (ie., min weight for the next heavier class.) If your car weighs enough for the next heavier class, you should have to run it in that class.

Next problem...?

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Y'all are missing the point. Bob Shaw built that car, knowing it was going to be real heavy for "U". He can't run V anyway.It's a V8 .
I'm sure he doesn't have a weight box either. What do you want to tell him? He can't race?
If the car is 400 heavy with no ballast , the hp % is irrelevant, or atleast off the charts.