Frozen block
 

a little problem happened to me the other day. i went and got my racecar out of storage. it sat all winter in the yard in the trailer. when i opened the door to the trailer under the car was a nice little 1 5/8 freeze plu from my motor. looks like it the one of the 2 in the rear of the block.

all freeze plugs have been pushed out "some" only one is all the way out. my question is what are the odds that i did damage to this block? how do i know one way or the other.

my intensions are to pull it. then replace all the freeze out plugs with new ones and pressure test the motor in place with a radiator test pump. if it holds 13 lbs i'm figuring i'm good to go. any other inputs. sides i'm a dumb ***.

news flash to self. half draining the raditor in the middle of winter filling the remainer with antifreeze and then running the electric water pump dosn't do a good enough job. who knew.

signed. screwed before he got started, and never kissed.

Re: Frozen block
 

You probably don't want to know my experience (which was very similar). Mine had a huge crack in the lifter valley (350 Chevy). I JB-Welded it up, and it still runs to this day.

Regards,

Re: Frozen block
 

I did the same thing a couple of years ago. Maybe I go lucky, never had a problem with a crack. What I did have a problem with was I did not change out the frost plugs and lost 2 of them the first time I had the motor up to temp.

Replace the frost plugs. Pressure test it, if it holds I think you'd be good.

About the draining the rad and adding anti freeze. I rented out my garage to some buddies to store their race cars 1 year and during a real cold snap 1 of the guys showed up just to check the rad/water. He drained the rad, added antifreeze ran the pump to mix it up and the freezing temp of the coolant did not go below freezing... It baffled us for a bit.

We fired the car up, got it up to temp and then retested the coolant and then it regestered below zero. I think that the anti freeze and water need heat to mix properly.

Re: Frozen block
 

I did have a engine block that cracked. It didnt crack for the same reason but I also JB welded it and as far as I know the guy I sold the motor to still runs it that way today.

Re: Frozen block
 

Have you pulled the oil dipstick and checked it? If it shows about 3 quarts above the full line, you've got cracks inside, probably in the lifter valley area.

Re: Frozen block
 

This may be an odd question, but why would you leave water in any engine, the minerals in water attack almost every part of the cooling system. My suggestion (take it for what it's worth) drain the block and rad. go buy 2 gals. of premix antifreeze and pour it in, this would eliminate the potential for freezing and the antifreeze helps stop the errosion effects of water. Joe.....P.S. I've been told by may Rad. manufactures that you should use distilled water in a race motor as all the nasty stuff has been boiled away

Re: Frozen block
 

i would suspect that you will find damage some where if not in lifter valley then possibly along and above pan rail,i have had it happen years ago and the freeze out plugs never even moved,when storing a engine for the winter mix the antifreeze in motor at operating temp and then drain it out,there is no good reason to leave it in over the winter,i always run a water pump lubricant in radiator to combat rust as i never leave water in block even during the normal race season,always fog motor before storage and back off the rocker arms hope this helps

Re: Frozen block
 

in 24 hours i got alot of useful information. some of it makes me sad and has me feeling that i'll be spending another summer making money to replace a motown block and the cost of all the machining. others give me hope that thanks to the plugs the metal never got stressed enough to crack. but, if it did the magic of JB weld could have me racing in a month. question is would it be "wise" to risk the thousands of dollars invested if i physically see "a crack". with a sick mother and father in and out of nursing homes my time is truely not my own.

as for the questions that referrrnace "why would i do that". i have no answer. i could give one only to find myself in the forest gump catagory. life gets in the way of living sometimes and we make wrong, poor or late choices that cost us money, time and unhappyness/stress.

so with that said, i got what i asked for in this forum. maybe i'll know something on sunday then maybe it will not be until next sunday or the one after that. my time is not mine. this is a hobby and is at the mercy of the time i can give it. the good news is that i just love working on cars. sitting behind a desk all day i get real excitied to turn wrenches.

hope the news is good for my concern. thanks

Re: Frozen block
 

Carlos, didn't mean to sound sarcastic in my post I hope you find no "real" damage. This may be helpful in the future, I made up a check list for my car one for the fall and 1 for the spring time, just list all the things you need to do and check them off as they're done. I know all about getting busy at times, this check sheet saves me from having to remember what I have and haven't done. Good luck Joe

Re: Frozen block
 

its ok joe, its just my turn to be a dumb ***. **** happens and its my turn. i just have to deal with it.

i do have a question based on one of the posts. now my freeze plug came from the back. now assuming that when it hit the fan the water in the block was frozen then it would not of leaked out until it was warm enough to melt the ice. if that is so then all the water and antifreeze would come out of that plug hole. my trailer floor is painted and alot of that paint was peeling up thanks to the antifreeze i think. but, if it was cracked then some of the water/antifreeze would drop into the oil pan.

i have 2 plugs on my pan. one up top and the usual one on the bottom. if i open the top one and something comes out (oil) then i'm up **** creek. means product of unwanted form (water) made it into it. god i hope i open it up and its dry. then that leaves the bottom one. i'll just dump it into an open pan and see if the polar water molecules separate from the not polor molecules of the oil.

funny thing is what good is knowing this bull**** about molecules. you gotta laugh, it looks like **** when men cry.

Re: Frozen block
 

[QUOTE=BIZMANRACING

"why would i do that". i have no answer. i could give one only to find myself in the forest gump catagory. life gets in the way of living sometimes and we make wrong, poor or late choices that cost us money, time and unhappyness/stress.



Its kind of like getting MARRIED......lol

Re: Frozen block
 

Just an FYI to all -

Those plugs are not "freeze plugs" or "frost plugs" like everyone thinks. They are actually "core plugs" which are used in manufacturing to get the sand out of the sand cast block. Many times what was described in the posts is what people find, plugs pushed out, so they have been mistakenly inrterpreted as freeze plugs for ever. I think this is what has given people the idea they have more freeze protection than they actually do. However, from the replies, you can tell how well they don't protect from freezing. I think we all tend to do things the easy way, myself included, but getting the antifreeze circulated is critical. Draining the block is not a bad idea, but I would have anitfreeze circulated first, because even the block drains still won't always get all the water out. Maybe if you winterized in September like the boat owners, then any residual would have time to evaporate.

Just wanted to pass along in hopes of helping everyone better understand their investments, since they are so expensive to replace.

Re: Frozen block
 

i came back to my post hoping someone had some good news of hope. unfortunally not. yep i guess its like being married. i do love my wife like i do my car and everything about it. even when it loses a race and i knew it wasn't "my fault".

i going to put my freeze/sand plug under my pillow tonight. hopefully the crack block fairy will spare me. i'll advise when i know. hopefully i can control the tears as i write the check.

Re: Frozen block
 

Now i know why there is so many oil downs. JB weld in the lifter vally???? Wow, thats the craziest thing I ever herd.

Re: Frozen block
 

I've been a plumber for 31 years. I tell my apprentices I learn from my mistakes, how do you think I got so smart?

Re: Frozen block
 

Carlos, heres some hope for you, A motown block should be thicker and stronger than an ordinary gm block. Not saying its not cracked, but those mid eighties small blocks would crack in the lifter gallies and sides all the time.

Your post should ask how many guys freeze cracked an aftermarket block. I've got my fingers crossed for you, I know all to well about time and the lack of it.

Re: Frozen block
 

what will life be like after drag racing?

i dumped the oil on sunday. as i unthreaded the drain bolt water started to work its way through the threads and into my dump pan. i just layed there on the cold floor of my garage and watched it fall. i half hoped that it was just some sick from on condensation since i run alcohal. but, i was not lucky. i just watched and watched wondering when it would change to oil. i waited a little while longer, i put my hand under the stream thinking that i due need to see the eye doctor for some new glasses, only to be very clear. it was water, and it had a little green to it.

i surrendered and just pulled the plug completely out. oil and water don't mix. as i layed there and watched i knew i had a big job ahead of me getting the motor pulled. all those tie wraps been cut. all those quick disconet wires to undue, and finally that last quart or more of trans fluid that would slip out as i tilted the motor and trans bring them out together. thats what happens when you use allen head bolts to attach the trans to the motor in a stock bodied car. everything has to come out.

now back to my first statement. i promised myself that when this motor went i would go back to 12 sec footbrake racing. but, i haven had my fill yet of 9 sec stuff, beside i had planned on taking yet more weight out of the car. (i weighted 3050 with me in it). life just got in the way of living. i guess if i can keep the cost at 3000 or below i'll give it another try. i figure the block must of craked down low since i can't see a path for water in the oil pan from a lifter valley crack.

Re: Frozen block
 

Sorry to hear the outcome Biz! Good Luck on the rebuild and 2009.

Cheers, Bill

Re: Frozen block
 

Before you scrap your block , I have seen some blocks get welded but you need to find a welder that welds cast iron. Can't hurt to ask someone.

Re: Frozen block
 

i called scharioff about the "concept" of welding. cost of pressure testing through them was 200. then if a crack was there. then it depended on if the crack could be reached. the worst case of a block that "could" be welded was an addition 500. then there is shipping to and from. probally a 100 on each side. so assuming that it can be done the bottom line is something just short or above 1000.

called my engine builder and asked for a bottom line worst case. block 2000, machining small block and clearaning for a 427. 600. gaskets, bearings, rings another 600. then 1000 for him. total 4200.

i'm as sick as i can be. in these times this could kill someone. thus my statement. whats life going to be like after drag racing.

during better times i would say "its only money, just go make more of it" but, it hurts to much to think that way. so since tomorrow will come, i'll just do my best to get through today.

after i do a shady tree mechanic pressure test on the block. (block intack with new freeze plugs in, water pump still mounted, cponnect the rad and the hoses, then pressure from the rad cap to 13 ppounds any hope she might be ok.

Re: Frozen block
 

If the block is freeze cracked it is usually easy to find. It probably left a rust trail that would lead you to the crack. You can dry powder mag the crack area to confirm it if it was all apart. It is pretty easy to pressure test a block yourself as you described. Put water in it first and then pressurize it with the oil pan off. Drain it out when your done though..... Welding a cast iron block is not a good way to go in my opinion. There is also a process called stitch welding and that is also not a good way to go. Any internal crack is going to leak water into the oil. I have actually seen an epoxy repair work better than a welded repair......but I wouldn't recommend it especially if the crack is internal. You would be better off parking your car and waiting until you had enough money to get a new block rather than risking all your parts on a block that had a crack and was repaired. I have seen to many failures of supposedly properly welded race engine parts.....Being out of racing is not a big deal as it is usually there when your ready to return and it's like you didn't miss a thing.....well almost.....I have had 2 freeze cracked blocks in my many years of messing with cars........It's not fun....good luck

Re: Frozen block
 

Ask your machinist about filling the block with block filler, depending on where it is cracked. You may be able to stabilize the crack (drilling the ends, etc.), and the filler would seal it from any water. Might be an option..... Also, there is a process for crack repair that the remanufacturers use called lacing. They actually drill and tap a hole in the crack and then put in a special bolt that the head breaks off of. Then they drill another, then another until they overlap, filling all of the crack. Once the repair is done, they shot peen the casting and you can't even find where it was laced. Not sure where you could find anyone who does that procedure, but you could contact an engine remanufacturer that might be close, they might do it for you. Just a couple of options that hopefully might help.

Good Luck, keep us posted.

Ron
33 S/C

Re: Frozen block
 

Ron,

Ironic, you answering this thread. I doubt that you remember me but, I bought a SBC small journal block from you about 20 or so years ago. It was due to this very same problem. For my 2 cents, replace the block, you don't have any idea as to the potential internal damage. When mine cracked, it cracked a couple of the cylinders. An expensive lesson then, doubt it's gotten any cheaper today.

Miss the old days hanging around Scott's speed shop.

Robert Swartz

Re: Frozen block
 

Is Indiana cold weld still in business, they used to do that type of repair. My wife used to run around with the owner's daughter many decades ago.
If they are it is a pretty amazing process, Like Ron said, you won't be able to find the crack, and the way they do it sort of "pre stresses" the repair, it is very, very solid.

Re: Frozen block
 

Stitch welding is the process referred to in an earlier post. Tapered pipe plugs are installed directly along the crack and they are installed one by one and overlapping one another. Been there, done that and it eventually leaked in a 400 Pontiac race engine. That was an outside crack and quite long and into a freeze plug. If it was an external crack you could vee it out with a grinder and fill it will epoxy and your chances of it not leaking are about as good as any other process. Welding cast iron really requires pre and post heat to get it to work as well as possible. Al Mathon in NY used to offer cast iron weld repairs on heads and maybe blocks as well. He guarenteed the repair would not leak. I had experience with his weld repaired heads.....they did not leak. Seats and guides had to be redone after the weld due to the pre and post heat he used to get the best weld quality. Usually after one of these repaired heads ran for a shor time they needed to have the seats redone. The heating process made them unstable. My buddie blew up a couple engines and had ported Turbos...Each blow up meant another head repair. I finally convinced him to ditch those heads and buy some new ones. I also had a 454 race engine that came in a car a buddie bought. I drove it for a while. The engin was built using a 427 '351 block.......the block that came in a mid 60's Corvette. It had aluminum rods in it and the guy that ground it for clearance gound to far and hit water. He epoxied the water jackets. It leaked the first time we ran the car. We pulled it apart and tried to get the epoxy out by oven baking the block...twice. It just made a big mess.....We tossed the block in the scrap pile. Those '351 blocks bring a lot of money in the collector world and it might have been worth trying to fix it but that was before they were paying silly money for collector cars......I still think welding, stitch welding and epoxy preairs on a race block is not a god idea....

Re: Frozen block
 

well the jury is back.

its been awhile since this nightmare began. i buried my father who died mar 15. rest in peace dad. he always hated my racing. said it was stupid. 2 cars going down the track at crazy speeds just dangerous. he was intitled to his opioin. i could say i wished that he saw me race, but he never did. he said he didn't want to bury me. why don't i go back to playing golf. oh well.

but, anyway the block is cracked in number 8 and number 3. so i have a big heavy paperweight for sale. the new block is ordered and i guess in a month or 2 i should be back out. thanks for all the replys. i'm not welding it and i'm not going to hard block it. i don't think my dad would approve the added danger. i do hope that now he can see all the races and if he wouldn't mine riding with me and stop me before i do something stpid like stomping the brakes at high speed and blowing out the front tires.

good luck to all, hope to see you at some track real soon. its already been a long time it seems since i ran super street. blowing out those tires put a big dent in my racing for awhile.

Re: Frozen block
 

good luck with the new block,i,m very sorry to hear of your dads passing,very sorry for your loss

Re: Frozen block
 

Carlos, very sorry to hear of your fathers passing, it really brought back some memories. My dad passed a couple years back and though he and I really never got along, watching him die was probably one of the hardest things I've ever done. I just hope you and your dad were on good terms as their deathbed is not the place to reconcile. Joe