if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

stock & superstock class winners no longer are reserved a spot in the eliminator.
after 50+ years the STANDARD which wally based all sportsman racing on... THE CLASS WIN is hereby relegated to the waste can. the wording from my 1980 rulebook states as it has (until monday)
"the eliminator will be comprised of the the class winners and then filled to 64 with the fastest cars qualifying and not winning thier class"... get it guys the class winners are not the "bump ins", the qualifiers are.

in 1972 there were 336 entries in stock at indy representing 36 classes...you wanna talk about 2005 being a tough qualifying field.

so now the sportsman committee who we asked for and elected to take care of our class and prevent ignorant rules from blindsiding us allows this to happen... looks like they took a clue from bush and the republican congress we elected...a committee with tueton and woodro on it... purists i thought ?

when i started in 1974 there were just three PILLARS of TRUTH that all stock eliminator was built upon...
1. There will be heads up runs whenever two cars of the same class stage against one another
2. Winning your class at a national event was special and guaranteed you to race the eliminator
3. There will be randon teardowns WHERE THE RULES WILL BE ENFORCED.

lets see... over last 4-6 years teardown has become a joke with numerous cars being reinstated at indy alone, so there goes # 3... now as of monday #2 is gone... well go ahead guys tell us when #1 will go by the wayside too.

well if you "powers to be & internet whiners" wanted to get rid of my fat *** you have succeeded.

this will be my last indy unless this rule is recinded. i will not nor will my sons renew thier numbers or membership to nhra. if and when i race it will be combo's at ohio valley and bowling green. i will no longer give my money to an organization who refuses to uphold the integrity of the rules and classes they offer. if the rest of you wanna pay to be part of the $50,000+ per car minimum bracket race ya'll go right ahead

jack mccarthy
and to think we were saving to build the old wagon into a SS/P car but...

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Good post Jack. i agree with all you said and im a bracket racer.
Clarence Woodham e/sa 2783

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

WAAA WAAA BOO HOO HOO

A month ago people were crying because stock/superstock is supposed to be a "performance" based class and apparently the thought last month was that they were "performance" classes. Now people are crying cause the class winners won't automatically be part of the "big go". Now the field at Indy will consist of the quickest and best performing 128 qualifiers. The way it should be. Class winners can take their trophy, enjoy holding it and watch thru the fence on raceday, if they aren't one of the top performers.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Great post Jack,
Class winner at Indy should be an accomplishment. It still could be if they'd let class winners only go to the show. That would be performance driven?
Last time I ran class at Indy was many years ago. 21 cars in SS/LA. You'd better bring your best or go home early.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Well said Jack.If NHRA had the will and balls to impliment #3 alot of problems with runaway combos would be corrected.But their only concern seems to placate the prima dona Pros.

Ed

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Jack, I have to agree with most of your comment. However, I need to correct one thing. You refer to a Republican congress, and that is incorrect. The Democrats took control of the Senate and the House in January 2007 when gasoline was $1.96 and Diesel was $2.46.....

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

You know Ed, those same two "oil men" were in the White House for SIX YEARS before the Democrats gained control of Congress, and before gas/diesel prices went through the roof. But then, you knew that already.

As to the rest of it, how do you KNOW the committee had ANYTHING to do with this rule change? What makes you think there's a GUARANTEE that NHRA will consult them or anyone else when it comes time to make a rule change? What makes you so sure Woodro Josey and/or Jeff Teuton had anything at all to do with it? Do you know for sure they did? Do you know how they voted? Let's see your evidence, since you've decided to call them out and accuse them in public.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I am a Bracket Racer and sometimes an "IT" (Throttle Stop) racer as Hot Rod calls it. Guess I'm an ole school guy when I believe a class winner especially at Indy should go to the Eliminator on sunday!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Alan have you called your Div. rep to talk with him on this new rule? I called our Div 3 rep and spoke with him about this subject. Now, about the "two oil men" in office, we're almost at the bottom of the barrel with those two in there. Prices of fuel and gas, layoffs because of the gas prices, prices at the stores going up, service men getting killed everyday, people losing their homes, yea the President said everything is lookin GOOD. J.Gower stock 3058

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Jack -- I , just like you have been at this game a very long time and my first Indy was a couple of years after your 1972 stats -- where in the world did they come from? 336 entries in stock -- my memory is fading but I did take my meds this morning and I still can't remember a stock field ever being that large......maybe I should start thinking about taking some Aricept . Also , before you and your sons start burning your membership cards maybe waiting until the smoke clears might be prudent .........

PS-- Does anyone know for sure that the Sportsman Committee voted on the new Class Winner rule ?

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I dont know why everyone is so upset about this. The only race on the tout that allows more than 128 entry's is Indy. All of the other races it will not make any difference. Due to the economic conditions there might not be 128 cars there. NHRA might limit the entry's to 128 cars in the future. On the other hand it says all national events will have a 128 car field. I guess that means the will accept 128 entry's at all of the nationals? Indy is 1200 miles away for me so this ruling doesn't effect me. I couldnt win class anyway.I am one of the low budget guys that the fast guys want to get rid of anyway. Us slow guys love racing just as much as the guys with alot of money. We just have to live with in our means.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Steve Polhill, "slow *** class winners?" I imagine some guys who race a car factored tightly by AHFS or really made in Detroit not on paper or without superceded parts could take offense a that statement. Are you against slow classes or ? just people who win with less that 1.0 under cars?
I believe Class Racing in S and SS is the true meaning of Sportsman racing. If you want to talk about Bye run winners or less than .5 under winners or classes created and only one car exists then thats different. Remember it is not a "fault" of the racer for being alone in class at an event. It is caused by the Vast number of classes created. The intent on one hand was to give people latitude but also attract entry paying racers to events to support the purse. Now with time that has shown to be a weakness and diluting Class racing. That should be corrected.Cut the numbers of classes to 1/4 or less. Then ALL classes should have competition and be even more entitled to be in the Eliminator.
Class Winners earn the right to be in Eliminator. If there are no races in too many classes then COMBINE classes. Fix the problem , dont create a way around it that removes the reward for class racing. Not everyone who enters can win Eliminator but with Class, many can gain recognition for their wins.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

let me clarify a few things

1. i'm not a slow *** class winner, i will QUALIFY for the show in this my farewell tour indy (as i have for many years) NO MATTER WHAT THE BUMP IS !!!

2. the politicians i refered to were 8 years ago when the republicans who were supposed to return us to the frugal, non entitlement government spending got elected and spent more than any congress in history... like the new advisory committee we asked for to protect us from idiot weekly rules changes.

3. YOUR sportsman advisory committee members voted on this as part of the .2 tenths off index fiasco

4. if Wally thought class wins were unimportant why did he base all sportsman racing on them ???

5. 1972 there were several classes of over 30+ entries... ill get my program out & count them. by the way only 36 classes o/sa was last automatic class, sticks went to w/s i think

captain jack

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

If NHRA truly still considered S/SS "performance" based eliminators anymore and I don't believe that they do then we would still have; 1. Hardcore Tech Inspections and teardowns done by hardcore Techmen who would be allowed to do their jobs. 2. An AHFS that couldn't be manipulated. 3. Indexes that are about 1.0 lower (although I don't agree with that one). And 4. A class win and contingency program that isn't downright insulting.
I've been told by more "newbies" than I would care to count recently that "S/SS is "evolving" and if I don't want to "evolve" with it then maybe I should do something else". I am no longer going to be rewarded for being able to build a different car for a different class or for being able to read the Classfication Guide. Apparently I will from now on be chastized for not conforming and building a red big block Camaro.
Well we had ALL (me included) better watch just what we wish for because there are only three paths that can possibly be taken; 1. Do away with us, too expensive to enforce. 2. Turn us into a Bracket Eliminator, if it looks stock and has 9" tires on it it's OK. 3. Go back to a "performance" eliminator, fastest 64 cars with everyone torn down running off of National Records.
I really don't want to "evolve" anymore and I don't want go back to running off of records either so why can't we just put a stop to changing the rules every week, start acting like taking apart a couple of fast cars by tech is a bad thing, tweak the AHFS just a bit, make a Class Win worth SOMETHING and stop penalizing innovators.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

It will stop some of the performers from having a duck that got in on a single car entry class "win" like last year.....or was that '06?

But, if it were truly a performance based race, there should be no shoe polish, and no breakouts.

I guess if it were easy, everyone would do it.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

As much as you would like to call Stock and SS a performance based class, as long as you have shoe polish on your windows, its a bracket race.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Jack,

I know you're having a good time, but farewell tour Indy? Where the hell are you going? Indy is the only national event that you ever attend - how is that part of a tour? And most of us do not think that the eventual lowering of the indexes a lousy .20 is a fiasco.

Wally was around for all of the enhancements by the current regime for ten years before he passed. Remember when we had some real class money to race for, remember when we got 4 qualifing runs at a national events, remember when we were included in all national event line-ups, remember when we had 128 car fields at all of these races, remember when we had ramdom drug tests at national events, remember when Bruce had enough staff to tear down a bunch of cars at a national event, remember when we had a fair race schedule at national events,etc???? Wally was around for all of these changes. Sure he had turned it over to the blokes who are running the show now but he still had the hammer if he wanted to use it.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

All of you should RE-READ Billy Nees post. He's closer to the truth than most care to admit. NHRA would love to be rid on the problems associated with Stock and S/S. Theres about a GAZILLION 90 class cars including 10.90 ready to take your places not to mention other "circus acts". Dont shoot the messenger.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

The problem that I see is that the 1+ under cars have not been factored correctly in the first place. I can remember when the 360 cu in mopars came out and all of them quailified at Indy. At that point in time I was carrying extra weight because of a JR. stocker by a guy name Tony Pissia (sorry if I don't have it spelled correctly) which made my combination played out but I owned the car. Also, that's when you bought a car that you could barely afford, never mind race. My point is that NHRA can even up the field by running weight to cubic inches, for get about the factor which we all know is crap since the difference with flywheel horsepower versus rear wheel horsepower was for the insurance companies which they fell for.
I can see NHRA saying that you run the number that you quailified with, no shoe polish.
By taking the class winners out of the picture, you are just having a quailified bracket race, all you need is alot of money and keep pushing for changes (parts like Schubeck lifters) that were never dreamed about in the day when stock was created. I know that some of you will say to change, but I like stock when the word meant "STOCK".
Casey Miles
248H E/S (because of 4 hp)

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Goob, You seem like a knowledgable guy , but you cross over the line when you you start to criticize certain CLASS cars on here.
Don't wear out your welcome.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Mark,
Don't wear our your welcome????

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Bruce, Yes, I'm pretty sure Goob is a bracket racer. I think he has said he wouldn't run a class car. Too much hassle/money.
Everybody's welcome here , of course. I just have a problem with non-class racers telling us how we should do things.
Is that what you were asking?

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

bruce... the fiasco was the indexes didnt get lowered like they desperately need...and this new rule was shoved up our *** instead... fiasco seemed like a pretty good choice of words...

and i usually attend at least one other event... but you make my case for my indy farewell tour, if i only attend indy... then it is farewell.

i am just sick of all of this... rules of the week, AHFS, the increased entry fees and suck *** payouts, making phone calls to get what piss poor class money you do win, techmen not allowed to do thier job, one run if the weather aint nice... need i go on ??? you know what i mean i am sure.

i am sure i wont be missed by NHRA, or you, im just a dinosaur which is a pain in thier ***.

jack mccarthy

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Mark,
Don't wear out your welcome seemed so dire.

Jack,

Of course you "would" be missed. Hell, you're a lot of fun to have around. I know you'll pull a Favre on us and be back. I'm not far from getting off this merry-go-round either but have a few races left. This whole world financial "thing" has taken all the fun out of what used to be disposable income.

And a question for those of you who think that nhra would just love to try to get rid of all the Sportsman racers and especially Stock and Super Stock. Ever wonder why they haven't? It's their game! Or so they say!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Did you guys catch the special feature on Marty "the one man party"? The camaras followed him over to John Force and Force was pissed that Marty was getting more TV than him. It's all about the "Big Show" now......
The NHRA continues to make small changes taking sportsman racing where ever the master plan has us going. All-the-while these changes keep the Sportsman fighting amongst themselves not seeing the forest through the trees.....

I honestly thought these commitees were going to put a hold on so many changes so fast. It appears that just the opposite is happening.

Does anyone remember the days of "Pittin on the Pavement" because you ran a Class Car?

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Question?
Will this new rule apply to Sports National meets?

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

INDY dam I don't know about the rest of you but I can't wait. It's my favorate race. Hated to miss it last year. I'm not thrilled with all the rule changes and the 300 lbs of lead I have in the trunk but it could be a lot worse. Think about what some of the people in other countries will be doing this labor day. Lets go there and have a good time and enjoy the moment. We know it's not going to last forever. I also wouldn't mind if all class winners that had to beat another car ended up in the field. No matter how far under or over they run. Singles should have to qualify like everone else. Just my 2 cents. We all know before we leave home that you better have your **** together or you will be watching on Sat. Barry

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Thank you Barry. Hows come you'all are faster ,but we got 6 and you'all got 5.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

go fast or go home!!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Jim;
What's your car # and class?

Ed F.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Jim Foley is Fred Johnson brother

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

And how many times has Mr. Foley qualified *HIS* car at Indy?Jim

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Jack and others you all are living in the 1970's Stock needed a little change like this. Just because a rule was made 40 years ago does not make it right. It's simple if you can't run around 1 under don't bring your turd .5 under class winning **** box to indy unless you just want to win class. Or maybe you people could spend a little more time in the shop and less time worrying about how you can steal a spot into the U.S. Nationals. bye the way Jack a class win at indy is never point less. I would agree with barrys post about having to run someone then you would be bumped into the show that would be fair. JUST NO CLASS SINGLE BUMP INS

fastest 128 at indy its about time
U.S. Nationals class winner ,qualifier and cheater

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

So let me get this straight, I race and get enough grade points to get in to Indy. I spend the money for entry, fuel to get there and back, hotel room, and food. I get there get parked, go through tech, go up to run class but nobody else in my class chose to get off their collective butts to make the race so I get a bye. I run .85 under but sorry you say I can't make the show because no one else showed up in my class? I should be penalized, no THROWN OUT of Indy because I was lucky enough to get a single? No it's ok if I ran .52 under and one other "turd" ran .51 under and I beat him. Then I would make it, because it's a performance based class, right? I mean everybody knows that two "turds" running .50 under is better than one car running .85 under. I hope this never happens to you Mr Downing so you don't have to find out the pain it causes. Shame on you and NHRA. Jim

And BTW, NO class winner "steals a spot, all class winners earn the spot. That's the way it was set up by Wally himself. He did that for a reason. Some traditions should be left alone.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

As some one who has only been to Indy one time and got schooled real fast on the best of the best. I have not been back due to I am not at the speed needed to make the show I will be soon. Indy has always been the show of the big dog's I grew up hearing stories on dad winning class to make the show and that is one of the goals I have in my racing. so from one of the guys that would benefit from this rule I dont like the rule cause it takes away from the history of indy. I want to go to indy and make the field knowing I am one of the best of the best. and if class winners are not givien a spot in the field than that will not be tru any more no matter what class it is even if its only one car in that class. thats my opion right or wrong I still am in amazment of dads fender covers from class win at indy and the sticker still on the bumber from his 71 olds .


Jeremy Waibel
Driver of the K&N Camaro
NHRA B/SA 2231

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

As I said in the other thread, even if I was a fast car I'd still want the class eliminator winners to get a guaranteed spot in the show just in case I was chasing a problem that particular weekend. It would give me one last shot to get in.

Class eliminations are now pointless. I'd love to hear somebody make a logical argument as to the reasoning behind continuing to have class eliminations because I can't think of one. Class eliminations are now nothing more than side show, just like the extra races that many of us compete in at the division races (S/SS shootouts and the like).

All this is going to do is make it easy for NHRA to make the decision to no longer contest class eliminations and save themselves a bunch of money at races where class eliminations are run (which is not a paltry amount of money at $500 times 100 or so classes, not to mention the cost of the trophies and time saved).

If single car class winners was the problem, then why not eliminate the single car classes, and combine them into another class?

As I said before, I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me that you guys are soon going to be better off running Comp...

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

If you truly believe this...Then you must also ascribe to the supposition, since we are not pros (for national events) or TAD/AFC (for divisionals), our attendance at an event is nothing more than a side show.

Keep repeating something over and over, and you, as well as other people will begin to believe your mantra. While I believe we (class racers) do not carry the biggest stick, we never the less have a stick, and a stick of any size (large or small) is dangerous, you just need to know how to use it.

Winning Class will always be a Class Win, but winning the eliminator will always be worth more money. If you can win both with out a bump in (NHRA's words) then "Your the Man/Woman."

As far as the SAC, call them. They are not mind readers. Yes they were elected to represent their constituancy, but they cannot call every single racer and poll them, it is incumbant upon you to let your representative know your thoughts. If you do not feel they are representing your interest, then your wrong because they represent the interest of the Class as a whole. If you feel otherwise you should run for the position next time, but remember it is not about "You" it is about the Class. If the Class is not represented then that is a different story.

Bill

PS. Eventhough I agree with this change; STOP changing the rules!! unless safety is involved, or a better part is available, or a new letter from a dusty file cabinet appears at NHRA, or if someone whines.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I absolutely, positively do not feel this way, nor did I state anything close to this. But, nobody is making the trek to a national event to win class only for the $500 and the mini-Wally. Sure, it's a nice little way to subsidize your trip to the track, but who in their right mind is going to pay $250 to enter to win $500 (before all other expenses are considered) with NO chance of being in final eliminations?

I'll tell you who, nobody, which is why I stated that class eliminations are now nothing better than a little side race to fill in some time.

There are a lot of good race cars that go to Indy that go home, some of which would have been able to get their way in because they could win class, maybe even using this thing called DRIVER SKILL. Now, it's the ones with the most money / most favorable combo at that time that get to race in final eliminations. Jr. Comp should be the new name of this category.

I'm going to assume you're kidding about the last two, as that's what appears to happen more times than not to get these changes to take place.

As I said before, this rule change doesn't affect me in the least other than from a sportsman racing standpoint. I think it was the wrong decision to make, and just made these classes more elitist than they already are. Plus, from a fan standpoint watching class eliminations used to be fun watching the drivers try to secure themselves a spot in final eliminations. Now, they're running for $500 and a mini-Wally. Yawn.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Jason,
I actually know a lot of people who go to National Events because they have (run) class, and most of those racers also have class.

Bill

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I beg to differ but there are many Class racers that attend a National event and are there with the intent of winning class. For some, winning the eliminator is secondary. I once knew a guy that one class @ Indy back in the early '70's with a '68 Barracuda 340. He won class at Indy. He had a lleather jacket that was custom stitched with this victory "I won Class at Indy" and something about the car. I met him at Neil Smedly's home in the mid '80's and it appeared this may have been the greatest automotive event of his life. The old guy still probably goes to car shows with that jacket. Corny? You bet! But I completely understand.
The same logic finds there are some racers that only race Divisional events so they can set national records. After tear down, they go home.
Myself, I was #1 qualifier, won class and made it to the finals and lost. I'm very proud even with the loss because of the difficulty in achieving a triple like that. My friend Neil Smedly did that on his one national event win and I'll forever look up to him for doing so.
No, this whole Indy deal is a farce and as Bill Grubbs suggested, I will be in contact with our D7 rep over this. There are a lot of things in life which can be viewed as a waste of time but we do it as it is tradition and does serve a purpose. Should we save a few bullets and not have a 21 gun salute to those that have served our country when they are burried? No, we do it out of respect and honor.
Some race in S/SS and could care less about the tradition and honor in having the fastest in their class on that particular day. Fine, nobody is making you put more time or money in your vehicle. But without class run-offs, or heads-up runs, this is nothing more than a bracket race. Nothing personal to Jason or anybody else but maybe a S/ST or S/G racer using a throttle stop, delay box and whatever else may not ever fully understand the pride, devotion and sense of accomplishment that comes from showing you were the top dog that day. And just to make it clear this is not motivated by an angle, I have the slowest car in my respective class. I enjoy the challenge and fully intend to ellevate that level. But right now I'm no shoe-in for a class win.
And somehow I can't help but feel this new policy was lead by the bracket racer contingent whom would like to compete in a national event forum but lack the dedication or resources to lead the performance arena.