ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

I heard some news today that our Sportsman Council members voted to lower the indexes 2 tenths and change the automatic horsepower from 1.40 under to 1.30 under. I'm curious to know if anybody outside of the council had any say or input into this decision. I certainly wasn't asked my opinion about it...nor were about 30 others racers that I've spoken to either. I guess our votes don't count. Are all future decisions now in the hands of these few individuals?? Are they voting without reaching out to their fellow racers for thoughts? Sure seems like it.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

In case you missed it, Woodro Josey posted here the day BEFORE the meeting and specifically requested that those interested contact him or their council member with their list of concerns. See this thread: http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=11091

I don't think they will have the time to write and post polls on multiple bulletin boards for every issue, nor will they have time to email everyone and ask them their opinion on every issue.

It was pretty obvious over the last few months that the indexes and the AHFS were a concern, and the names of those elected to the council were announced, so everyone concerned about the issue had plenty of time to find their council member and give their opinion.

The ONLY way the SRAC is going to work is if the RACERS take their concerns to the council members/representatives. Those people have a life, and they are VOLUNTEERING their time. The RACERS cannot reasonably expect the council members to seek out the RACERS as INDIVIDUALS and get their opinions on EVERY ISSUE.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Alan, everything you said is true............BUT.....what's the difference if NHRA changes rules without consulting those affected, or the Council does it? I agree these guys and girls have other things to do, but they volunteered. If they can't apply do-dilegence to the job they should resign. It seems like we just got more enhancements without any say-so. Feels the same to my butt..........................

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Amen! Should lower the indexes 3 tenths. IMO. The reps shouldn't vote based on polls. They are elected to use their good judgement. All indexes should be has hard as the AA/S & AA/SA indexes. Let 'em run...

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

No they most certainly weren't elected to use their "good judgement". They were elected to be a united voice to carry the view of the racers to the sanctioning body. These racer reps were elected based on knowledge of the sport, integrity and honesty. Not as a rule making board in any shape, form or fashion.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Great start....my hat is off to the council members....lowering the index -.20 is a start...I would have voted for -.50

NOW...lets get back to 'real' racing - class style

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Maybe NHRA could set up a link or e mail link fo reach rep that could be accessed on their page by all to help with the communication?

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

I spoke to Evan Smith the D-1 rep at Maple Grove. We had a nice discussion, he listened, asked questions and was very open to racer concerns. Be proactive and talk to your rep in person, let them know what you think not what you want. They were were elected to represent everyone's points of view not be a lacky or berated because they do not vote as we wish. Great start with lowering the indexes, most racers are holding 1-3 tenths, this is suppose to be a performance class.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

First off, we're going on hearsay that something actually happened, AND that whatever happened is final and binding. We don't know anything, and nothing has been announced.

Second, I think if you look on the NHRA site, you'll find NHRA not only announced the members, but also posted their email addresses, or some other method of contact. I'll go look and see if I can find it, and post it here.

I found it, posted plainly on the Lucas Oil section of the NHRA site: http://www.nhra.com/content/news/26601.htm
http://www.nhra.com/content/news/27403.htm

Third, it is YOUR job to tell them what you want, it is not their job to contact you as an individual and ask you. Even your paid GOVERNMENT representatives that make thousands of dollars don't do that.

Fourth, several of those elected have posted here, and not only stated their opinion, but asked for yours. They have participated in threads you posted about your concerns.

Fifth, everyone has their own definition of "due diligence". I doubt anyone could satisfy some people's definition of "due diligence".

Sixth, this is a relatively new and untested concept, it will take some refining, and some work, both by the council members and especially by the racers. If you don't work at it, you can't expect others to make up the difference. Start calling it a failure right now, and see if NHRA doesn't either abolish it, or ignore it, and it'll be right back to some nameless faceless entity making decisions for you, and they'll be doing it without any input, and without any responsibility to you.

Seventh, if you're assuming that every decision is going to go your way simply because a group of racers makes it, you're going to be sadly disappointed.

Eighth, finally, I don't think you really WANT people who have nothing to do but post polls and try to find you personally to ask you what you want, because they don't exist, and because even if they did, I doubt anyone like that would see things the way the average racer would any way.

In any event, now I posted links to the announcements and the lists of your SRAC members and their contact information, so if you have issues or concerns and you don't contact them, it is your fault they don't know what you think, want, or don't want. Take the time to let them know how you feel, they'll listen, if you give them a chance.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Now hold on , lets find out what the reps have to say here, before we all get up in arms . I know I voted for the rep in my div., based on my own feelings that they would do the best for us all. Lets get some word from them, before lighting any fires. We all have an interest in this, not just a few .

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

If you lower all the indexes by one full second, the qualifying order doesn't change. It's all relative.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Michael -Very good point, however if the indexes were lowered a few tenths we could go back to flat out class racing and stop sandbagging .............

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

I dont know about the rest of you But my combo has taken 2 HP hits in the last two seasons. It is not one of the obscure under factored combos like Bob Dennis runs. It is a 350 295/318 motor. now you want to shove another 2 tenths on us. That is the dumbist thing I have heard in a while. First of all that will not do anything for sand bagging. That has always been going on. If the sand baggers would just run their cars to there potential then the AFHS would work in its present state. The problem is not with the AFHS. its with the drivers that try to manipulate it by brake light racing. If you like hitting your brakes go circle track racing. The only thing lowering the indexes will accomplish is to keep new racers from building cars and starting to race S/SS. I know when I started running super stock it took quite a few years to make my car run consistently under the index. I guess all the old timers forget what it was like when yhey started out. Right now the car counts are way down. we need some real enhancements instead of something that will hurt our type of racing

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

It looks like some of you are looking at this the wrong way. Back when stock began you could build a competitive car for $5000. Then NHRA enhanced our butts with all this aftermarket stuff so the manufacturerers could make money from us. Now a competitive stocker cost over $20,000 to build (yeah I know, a higher class car is well over $50,000). And it's not even a stocker anymore. They're more like modified production used to be. The best part is that the payouts are very close to what we got back when. Everyone comes on here and pisses and moans about the NHRA enhancments. Well, this is the same thing, only this time we're getting it from our own people. These 2 rules in particular may have a lot of support. But you may not like the next round of enhancements, and then we'll see the crap hit the fan, right? If we have to go to committee members with our conserns, then the only thing being discussed is what all the whinners and sqeeky wheels want discussed. The committee's responsibility is to all racers, and they must present issues to everyone or this whole thing isn't going to work correctly.
NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION..................Yeah, I'm ready for the revolution!!!!!!!!

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Revolution? Ha! nhra loves revolutions! They'll swat you like a lonely fly. Great guys - I'm sure!

Taking .20 off the indexes does nothing to the racers who are not as fast as others. We are runnning in 80 to 90 car fields at nationals; with the exception of Indy.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

They only cost that much if you sit in front of the TV and write checks. How about going out to the shop and opening the tool box and firing up the welder? Cost really goes down and it has to be more fun. Sounds like the council is doing what it was designed to do, bring some racing back to stock.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Alan, Well said.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Would you still need to run -.500 under to win Class?

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

first of all... i cannot find fredjohnston on a current qualifying sheet ???

second - i (for one) asked & agree with the index reduction... unless you are under 25, or ignorant to the history of the class you race you KNOW nhra last RAISED the indexes (1980something) and since then have been doling out FREE ET with enhancements like the government spends money... if you cant run the index you probably cant change you own oil... besides we all thought it was a done deal last season we even ran off new indexes at ohio valley doorslammers last october but it wasnt an across the board reduction which i think it should be.

third - as far as RULE (not index) changes my hopes were that a sportsman council would squash all the internet whiners and intelligent heads would prevail and STOP changing a rule every week... im tired of everyone who thinks because they want a rule changed (or better yet they already are breaking one and want us to wrap our arms around it) it is thier RIGHT to have the rules fit thier agenda.

last - we have a pretty good group here...it cant be any worse than glendora's bull****.

jack mccarthy

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Well said...........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

If we look at Bowling Green Qual sheet. A .2 move of the index only cut one SS of 60 racers. He probably had problems.
In Stock of the 64 cars running only the bottom 2 cars would have been unable to hit the index and they were having problems.

If the indexes were moved down .5 then only number 60 down cars would have been affected in time trials in stock. SS would have affected #54 through 60 making them appear to not run index.

Or of 124 cars time trials listed only 3 cars would have been affected in eliminations by the .2 change of index and we can be fairly sure not all got a good run...

On the other change the quickest way to help the AHFS is to move the trigger as done by the committee.If it hit the top 1/2 of the qualifiers it would just make the whole field more evenly factored. This only affects people who NEED to see the big - numbers and the tougher it gets the more the smaller amount under is respected....its just habit at this point to Need to see big - numbers..
My opinion the committee made a conservative move in the best direction for the entire interest of the racers.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

They've got years and years of data compiled now. They could look at an arbitrary baseline and refactor *all* cars once and be done with it.

If you race flat out, your car gets factored properly, and then you can race flat out. It doesn't make sense to me to make a car go faster just to slow it down to avoid a HP hit. Save the money in the first place and put it in the gas tank. ;)

-=shrug=- Don't matter to me, I guess. I just enjoy racing.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Jack,
I have been racing SS since 1977. I can not remenber having my index raised ever.

Dick,
If you do the math with the proposed changes in index and the change in the trigger they just raised the trigger by .010 not lowered it all this will do is widen the gap of the under factored combinations.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Mike you are correct it softened the factoring instead of tightening it. I bet they misread it too. The trigger needed to be moved the same or moved more to change the factoring point . Thanks I did mis read it....

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Amen x2 for the day.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

What is the advantage of NOT rasing the indexes?We have gotten all sorts of parts aproved, and liberal rule changes in the last 20 years, it's is about time. For the guys that are running the index and cant go faster. The Afhs will give you HP back to help. That is why it is there. If there is a guy that runs a second under in your class, and you run the index, you better work harder, or find a new class. I'm happy that the counsel is getting things done. I hope we can draw a line in the sand and no more rule changes for awhile.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Jack,
Amen X3, Todd you are also on the money, Dick I don't see you on the qualifying sheet but you always have a lot to say ... please feel free to elaborate ... 1664SSJA, I have been racing stock eliminator since 1975, I very rarely see new faces, If I do, it is a current stock eliminator's son, daughter, brother in law, etc. If you can't run the index in stock or super stock or you don't have the money maybe these classes aren't for you. This is not a socialistic class, IT IS A PERFORMANCE CLASS. Try bracket racing ....

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Chuck, It was pointed out that if a car had to run 1.4 under an old index. Lets use 11.00 index he had to run 9.6 to trigger the hp hit. If the new index is moved to 10.80 and the trigger -1.3 under that he now has to run FASTER or 9.5 to get hit. I believe they missed this in the meeting and intended to make the AHFS tighter which would have required making the trigger -1.1 under (the new index) or 9.70 to be factored.

And Nope, not on the Q sheet at this time. Havent actively raced since 98 Nationals. 10 years WOW that is a long time without doing any class racing...If I could get my drivers (kids) back interested TOP/STK would be our goal.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Discussing correcting the factoring problem is one part of the discussion. Of the people who CAN afford to race in Stock or SS and plan to stay competitive that is one discussion.
The expense of Stock and SS racing is another issue. Making the bar higher for recreation of better factoring can affect the cost. Then its back to should everyone be able to "afford" current Stock or SS? Should the entry level classes be a different class like old pure stock? The current costs and class descriptions are not for everyone it is true.... Local tracks still run bracket Cheaper programs close to home and the only difference from current points meets is the friends might not be there. I am not sure the programs of Stock and SS could or should be ruled by a cost number to make it "affordable" by more people.
Maybe a fresh look at specs legal in a class like Spec motor class only one car for everyone would work for new people.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

I always hear the same rhetoric or complaints about cams, lifters,valves, etc... Guess what...the rules have been changed by NHRA and IHRA adopts most of the rules, therefore, like it or not, learn to live with them or go bracket racing. NHRA is not going to revert to the old rules... these are the facts... do a reality check and quit living in a fantasy world and quit dreaming. What racers have to look at is for solutions to the problems, however, with all the bickering and accusations, the S/SS community gives the appearance of a whole bunch of bratty kids.

Ed, we all know you are talking about Jeff Teuton...Jeff is in touch with all the racers and he has always had an open door to help and talk about any issues with any racer. By the way, Jeff was one of the last ones that got involved with the creation of the Top Stock class.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Mike.....if the sandbaggers that run your combo ran all out, you would have even more horsepower!!! Lowering the indexes won't hurt anybody....but like previously mentioned, there has to be something done with the automatic trigger and how far under you must run to win class. If they lower the indexes .2 then we should do away with having to run .5 under to win class and the AHFS trigger should be 1.20 under, or maybe even lower.

I still believe we need to bring weather conditions into the equation! If we're making this performance based and don't want sandbagging, then we need to consider runs in both mineshaft conditions as well as real slow conditions. If someone runs 1.30 under at -800 ft DA, should that be considered the same as running 1.30 under at 3000 ft DA??? NO! So why penalize someone for racing in mineshaft conditions, especially at low altitude tracks! And why not penalize them for going that fast in dog**** conditions?

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Maybe 1664SS/JA hit the nail right on the head with what's wrong with stock eliminator.......$6500 for heads..............What in the hell can you do to "stock" heads for $6500? We need another eliminator! All of the cheatin' bastards in it, then leave stock for the rest of us...........Wow, I've got to get back to the track soon........my heads gonna explode!

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

In the end it's the guys who bent the rules too far AND NHRA for not having the balls to call them on it.
So we have some of our fellow racers who caused this mess.Another fun day in NHRA drag racing.

Ed F.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

All you guys have a point or are correct in some things you are saying. I have
been racing NHRA since 1973 (I think) and have heard the same old things
being said and have said some of them myself since I started racing NHRA.
The point being that we are never going to agree on all the things that are or
are not changed. So, lets race or stay at home and bracket race but always
be civil to each other no matter what our positions because it will never change.
Some will be for changes others will be for the status quo.
Personally, I'm just glad to be able to go occasionally and enjoy getting to see
old friends and make a few passes down the track.

S.E.Buchanan
4708 Stock
4777 Super/Stock

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

If you pay $6500 for a set of Stock heads, I hope they pick you up at least 5 tenths. We bought a BRAND NEW set of heads last Fall, NEW castings and ALL new parts, it was well under $4000, and included gaskets and spark plugs even.

And NHRA is NOT going back to the old rules because they have no desire to spend time and money to enforce them. So we'll have to live with what we have. As far as that subject goes, we can only lobby against additional changes of that nature.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Wasn't necessarily talking about you. Was actually addressing several points others made.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

I agree with S.E. Buchanan: Just being able to go to the races and see old friends and make a few passes. And along the way, it would be nice to go a few rounds. Looking forward to the Memphis points meet...

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Several have mentioned going back to real racing and a performance eliminator. Well that would be heads up off the index or record. Sounds fine to me! Lower the index? To hell with the index. As Mr. Beard said its all realative. Until you correctly factor the combinations you won't change a thing. Lower the index 1 second and all you will have is a select bunch of underfactored cars patting each other on the back trying to make themselves feel good because they couldn't make middle of the field in todays events if factors were fairly considered and applied where necessary.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

My vote is to lower the index .2, and make the automatic hit at1.3 under. I have one of the combo's with the afterrmarket parts. I am forced to use these parts bcause I feel the need to keep up with everyone else. I will make a point to talk to Greg Hill at the Joiliet points meet to let him know my opinion,although it may be after the fact by then.Lets make Stock Eliminator participants work a little harder in order to be part of the game.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Three issues being discussed in this thread rolled into one
1) Moving the index down ---- PURELY cosmetic it does not affect any other part of S or SS.
2) Poorly factored cars ----MOVING the trigger is THE answer if NHRA will not or cannot factor more correctly when combinations begin to run. It needs to be less far under the index to make a difference that will be seen. If the index moves down for cosmetic appearance then trigger needs to move the same amount and more. If the index drops .2 then trigger needs to decrease .3.(to start with, .4 would be better)
3) Costs of racing is the third subject of the thread. Thats racing, Upgrades occur . Work with them or dont. It will not go back to the old ways. Most things added are an improvement to equipment.