Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Anybody know why the # 1 qualifier in stock at Great Bend was DQ'd ?

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

I think it was a cylinder head Violation

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Rumor has it that the tech crew poured the head and it came up way to big on the exhaust. Rumor also has it that NHRA provided their own head for comparison.

Maybe J Ryan can shed some light on this subject?

Congrats to the entire Ryan Racing crew on your record run at Great Bend.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Yep.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Thanks Dean. Not exactly ideal racing conditions. High side to quartering headwinds most of the weekend. Windchills in the teens in the morning hours. Just like being at home -- ha!

Yes, it was an exhaust port on a 283. How big? I don't know, but apparently NHRA has some specs already in mind for many of the more common cylinder heads. I won't speculate as to whether NHRA is using the SS pour specs or not, but they've been pouring Stocker heads for over a year now, so........??

With regard to this DQ. I was pitted next to the car both in the pits and in teardown, so I know more than I'm telling. Suffice it to say that there are some innocent people caught up in the DQ. I had a long discussion with the owner, and he may challenge it. In fairness to them, that's all I can say.

Jerry

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

so are we to assume that the Super Stock volumes are now used or are specs for Stock now ?

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

SO...NHRA is pouring heads in Stock Eliminator without any published volumes or guidelines? What if the racer buys cylinder heads from another racer and shop, the heads get poured and they do not meet the numbers they have and not available to the public?
This is another reason for NHRA to get sued...but...wait a minute...NHRA has established a new rule that they cannot be sued...a rule established to protect themselves from being inept.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

No Joe, I don't think we can ASSUME that. As you know, I talked to the owner and understand what went on. Both the owner and NHRA have information to support their sides. All should remember that in the past (way back) they didn't use specs either to DQ what they thought was incorrect. Maybe NHRA is going back to that line of thinking. I don't know, but it's their ballpark.

Jerry

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

I beg to differ with you Jerry, It's not just their ballpark, it's ours to! We have a right as paying customers/members to have a level, honest playing field. If they (NHRA) is using technical specifications to eliminate racers we have a right to know what those specifications are! This idea that NHRA makes a statement that says "we can not be sued" is BS. This idea ia a fire that must be extinguished. Every person, company or group can be sued and held responsible for their actions. You cannot sign your right to fair treatment away! We are required to play by the rules and so are they. Jim

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Obviously NHRA cannot prevent you from suing-they can only prevent you from racing.

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I agree Jim. Also give me rules to follow and I will follow them. I can't prepare for a rule that isn't there.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Well said George! That is all a racer can ask for, fairness! We must be fair and the NHRA must be fair, that is what we must have. Jim

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

George, you said "Also give me rules to follow and I will follow them. I can't prepare for a rule that isn't there."

Jim, you said "We are required to play by the rules and so are they."

The rule book I have states quite clearly that CYLIDER HEADS CANNOT BE MODIFIED. So if your head runners pour MORE THAN the SS spec, they are too big. If your heads pour MORE THAN an original head that NHRA provides, they are to big. PERIOD!!

AND, no where in the rulebook does it state that you can port a head, cover it with acid, and it will be legal as long as it does not exceed the SS spec's. That unfortunately is the assumption that many racers and engine builders have.

Maybe, just maybe, NHRA has spec's for heads, and their fact finding mission over the
last year has simply been to find out how many bogus heads are out there.

Jerry is correct, it's THEIR ballpark. If you don't like it, don't join.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Bob, who says they are using the SS Specs? Has NHRA made an announcement they will use the SS Specs for Stock Eliminator? For a starters, many of the numbers in the SS Specs are incorrect.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Come on Bob, don't make this any tougher on yourself than it needs to be. NHRA has NEVER said they are using SS specs on Stockers. In fact they used a junkyard head the found somewhere. They used 60's technology. Establish specs and publish them! Even field Bob, even field. Knowing the specs is a must, we aren't building a bomb here Bob, just trying to have some fun. Jim

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

We are also allowed to use aftermarket valves which for the most part are different than stock valves. There are probably a few CC's just in the valve.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

rule book says "unmodified"... ill bet they were modified

also good luck suing nhra... unless you prove you were discriminated against (that another racer was teched in the barn and passed with the EXACT same pieces) i believe you're screwed (actually screwed yourself)

i feel sorry for the racer, however nhra like nascar has the right to enforce thier rules (unmodified) and it is about time techmen were allowed to do thier job...

flame away... captain jack

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Jack...what part you do not understand...the main problem is there are no published specs for Stock eliminator...and like many have said, with the new valve rule, the specs will change even if you are using a virgin head.

NHRA created this problem throughout the years, and now they are trying to fix it...or better word, put a Band-Aid. Throughout the years, there was too much inconsistency between the divisions in what was or was not legal...add to that the overriding that took place in Glendora.

...and by the way...discrimination is not the only basis for lawsuits...one of my jobs in my profession is involved in product liability cases.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Everybody start bracket racing, Problem solved.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Did I ever say NHRA used SS spec's? NO.

Did I ever say NHRA announced they were using SS spec's, NO.

If you can't read my post and understand my post, it's no wonder why you cannot read the rule book either.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Did I ever say NHRA used the SS spec, NO. Please re-read my post if you think I did because I did not.
My post was a statement of my opinion. Here is one more opinion---Maybe they just used common sense?

SO we cannot used 60's technology on a 60's head?

I believe NHRA IS trying to EVEN THE FIELD, just like you want. Toss the cheaters.

But here is the real question Jim. Why do you need to know the spec's? If you cannot modify a head, why would you need a spec?

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Bob, I can read the rule book very well...the problem is the rule book is not consistent with the real world application by the tech department of its contents and the continous rule changes that take place on the fly that do not address the facts. You cannot just make a rule change unless you understand the ramifications and effect of the new rules on the previously established rules.

As regards to cylinder heads, I can take a pair of cylinder heads, do a competition valve job under the old valve rules and get a specifc volume number...if I take the same pair of heads, put new valves consistent to the new valve rule, I will get a different volume number...these are the facts and those that build engines know this takes place. I could take the heads and surface the intake or exhaust side to get the proper volume numbers...but...which volume numbers I use for a basis for Stock class?

Do you see my point? This does not have anything to do with altering cylinder heads with acid or porting...it is just based on the new valve rule. ...and by the way, I am not condoning cheating...these are the facts. Also, the numbers will vary based on the cylinder head design and the valve size.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

I fully understand how the new valve rule changes the cc of a head. But as you pointed out, milling the intake or exhaust face and sinking valves for clearance will make the runners smaller. And, the new valve rules will make the runners bigger. Should one balance the other, maybe. But when your runner cc's aproach 10%-15% over the published SS spec, maybe they are just a little to big.

Yes, I do see your point. But do we really know that NHRA does not have spec's? Spec's that they aquired from virgin heads? They have spec's for wheelbase, for example. They are not published, but they have spec's.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Stock Eliminator is a bracket race.

Unless you are running heads up, running for class, or setting a record. That's why it is very important to some of use that Stocker heads stay unported!

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Sometimes even the rule book means nothing. Not trying to change the subject here. But it clearly states that you can only protest a competitor before race day, a friend of mine was protested ON race day and had to tear down. There was no way he could have gotten his car back together for 1st round. Glendora and some of those wizards make it up as we go, again no consistency. I would guess that most racers don't even know the volume of the runners in stock because there is no rule, no listing for each head/engine combo, no + or - , no percentage + or -, so why would anyone care. Castings are castings and each one will be different.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

I know for a fact that NHRA does not have all the cylinder head volume specs from virgin heads. As a matter of fact, many of the volumes in the SS list are from cylinder heads that were already ported when they did not even have a spec available for a stock virgin head and when it was still illegal to port heads in SS. By the way, at one time, I used to be an SFI NHRA Tech. Terry Bell who goes under the X-Tech-Man in this forum also knows about this issue and has made very valid points on this issue before.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

I believe wheelbase specs are in the classification guide on the left hand side of the page.Heads can vary by 2-3 cc's during production. I have found this on many of the crate motor heads that are new from the factory. I know most hate crate motors, but if this is happening now, imagine what it was 30 years ago at the foundry with less sophisticated mfg procedures. Just my .01 worth. Spent the other penny on gas lol.
Mark

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Yes, in the early days, core shift was a big problem at foundries. If you are getting that much variation on the crate cylinder heads with todays technology, what can you expect from early OEM castings?

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Guys:

I have a CNC cylinder head business and have seen variances that you wouldn't believe.
The newer aluminum heads don't vary nearly as much as cast iron but they do vary alot.
I use to run a 428 Cobra Jet Mustang (many years ago) and have seen those heads vary
as much as 6-9 ccs.

S.E.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

I would agree that they do not have them all, but they have the popular ones. And I would agree that some were drawn on, at that time, bogus heads.

So, by your own admission, SS spec's (for the most part) are to big to use for a stock head---Correct?

So when a 283 head pours 10% more than the SS spec, how do you defend that? How can you justify that big of a runner? Surely, you don't expect me to buy into the new valve rule as being the cause?

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Well DAVE,

We only had to travel 534 miles one way to KS. Plus, we only took ONE car instead of the THREE we take to our Stock/SS races. So actually, this was cheaper as we split the costs. Also, Rick now gets enough leave at his new job to be able to take a few days off to race. Otherwise we would have stayed home. Another fact. Brainerd is 280 miles from us. Otherwise, ALL the Points Race tracks except Great Bend are 550 miles or more, one way, and as of now, he works the Brainerd weekend. So this was the shortest Points race for us. I have more reasons if you need 'em. Thanks for caring. Call when you come through to Murphy's. I'll even buy.

Jerry

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Why should NHRA publish a spec? Well, if you're using 30 year old heads, that you did not buy new, how can you be sure they have not been modified before you bought them, if you don't have a spec to go by?

It's really simple, publish a spec you are going to enforce, or don't enforce it. If the spec is not published, how do we know everyone is being held to the same spec and the same tolerance? We don't. And that simply will not work.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

:) :)

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

I don't think this is that complicated. NHRA is pouring stocker heads to get data for future specs and what they are saying is , if you pour bigger than a SS spec your out. end of story ! I think a clarifcation by NHRA , as to what they are doing , would put this confusion to rest.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

They poured the runners on my head (cylinder) at Gainesville 5 or 6 years ago. As far as I know there were only 2 of us running that head at the time?

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Word has it that the stocker volumes are very close to been done ( upwards of 90+%) and that we'll see 'em published around Indy time. Everybody, just hold ya breath until then! LOL
The way I figure it, those numbers will give us some 'lines to paint between'. However, I'm still concerned about the runner surface texture that can be positively identified as a stock surface. Should it match the texture of another outside surface, i.e. inside the head under the valve cover , around the valve springs?????
There's plenty of recent technology that can measure the texture and it wouldn't be that difficult for NHRA to step up to the plate and purchase such instruments i.e. a profilometer. An industy standard method of checking for welds and acid has been around for sometime now, it really is not that hard to detect!

Disclaimer: I'm a bit of a dinosuar racer, meaning my heads are completely untouched, give me some specs and checking methods and that'll probably change!

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Bernie, the problem is that surface texture is subjective, especially when the OEM used various foundries. Also, the condition of the tooling and molds has a lot to do with surface texture and also with core shift. With the exception of aluminum heads, you will see always a variation of surface texture in cast iron heads. I have seen this with many different makes of cast iron cylinder heads.

So, if NHRA starts to use a profilometer, who is going to establish the values and surface finish criteria? The surface finish criteria is different for all OEM's. Who is going to send the NHRA staff to train in metrology? The fact is that you do not need to have a smooth surface to make power with a low lift application. The new valve rule is what you will see as the one of the items improving performance in the class. About acid, there are numerous ways to neutralize and remove all traces of acid from cast iron and aluminum making it undetectable.

I am more worried of metal spraying than acid; hogging out a port is not the only key of making power: the shape of the port and runner is the key for velocity and to power. ...and no, you are not a Dinosaur racer; you have many valid points. The problem is that NHRA cannot keep up with either the technology that is available and the creativity of racers.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Not speaking for Bernie, but I believe he was inferring that if the runner texture does not match the other "cast" textures on the same head there "may" be a problem. For instance, in a 441 SBC head if the textures of the runners is not the same as the texture on of the cast surface under the valve cover, or the exterior of the runner on the underside of the head, then there "may" be a problem. Therefore if you were to do some runner "work" you would have to re-work all the cast surfaces on the head (time and $$$).

Bill

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

Bill, like I said, racers are creative. Racers have got around it by glass beading or shot peening the whole cylinder head. One of the items I would suggest is making port templates based on available, over-the-counter gaskets. Mr. Gasket even has a set of templates based on their Ultra Seal line.

http://www.streetsideauto.com/send_b...age/73074G.jpg

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ
 

[QUOTE=Bob;67603]George, you said "Also give me rules to follow and I will follow them. I can't prepare for a rule that isn't there."

Jim, you said "We are required to play by the rules and so are they."

The rule book I have states quite clearly that CYLIDER HEADS CANNOT BE MODIFIED. So if your head runners pour MORE THAN the SS spec, they are too big. If your heads pour MORE THAN an original head that NHRA provides, they are to big. PERIOD!!

AND, no where in the rulebook does it state that you can port a head, cover it with acid, and it will be legal as long as it does not exceed the SS spec's. That unfortunately is the assumption that many racers and engine builders have.

Maybe, just maybe, NHRA has spec's for heads, and their fact finding mission over the
last year has simply been to find out how many bogus heads are out there.

All I can say is this. The heads I run came on the truck when I bought the truck brand new in March of 1996. Mr. Ronny at Southland did a 3 angle and cleaned up the surface on these heads and thats it. I know how virgin these heads are; however, when Wesley pored them they were .2 of 1cc higher than the SS spec of a 350. Now they were try to compare the SS specs of a 350 to my 4.3 V6 because they admitted they had no data to compare to. Tell me how is that fair. All I can say is that if NHRA decides that these heads are to big I guess I will be doing more bracket racing, because I don't believe I could find a stock head smaller.

P.S. It is their ballpark; however, without players its just a field.