Re: Going DEEP....
 

It does not effect the car's acceloration rate or speed. It effects the indicated et. It does not make your car slower.
It is illegal. If you have to do that to win rounds, you need to work harder.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

And for the record, I don't care one way the other. Somebody wants to go deep use a blinder and stage backwards all at the same time! Go for it, just don't hold me up.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

I think this is why Ed has a problem understanding going deep.

https://youtu.be/YW9W5T-nQTo

Re: Going DEEP....
 

I dont see any problem with a person deep staging against me as long as they were held to the same time frame and it was up to them to get in there. Only time I recall deep staging was if I had to race the tow vehicle! I think I still left when the second yellow went out LOL. Big tires and a slow vehicle so I guess some of the U cars or front drivers could be in this boat. ( or guys that didn't gear or build their cars to react quick enough)
I don't see why anyone would care what the other cars dial in would be either. It is on the window so it is what it is. They still have to figure it out and run it.

if this is really an issue for some, why not put it to NHRA as a proposal. If it involves only a few people, maybe it won't change, but if there really are enough racers that want it and there is little opposition, why not?

Crying about it here won't change it. Especially when there aren't but a few wanting it. Do some work and make it easy for NHRA to consider it. Who knows?

As far as the polls go from NHRA, I don't think any of them were administered very well.
If you had the raw numbers from them, I bet it was a very small participation number.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Again I don't deep stage. I am just mind blown how uneducated on bracket racing yall are. Other than class it is a bracket race!

Correct me of I am wrong again but wouldn't a gear change do exactly the same ed??I go from 529 to 430 it appears to have slower et but the mph gain is quite a bit??

Re: Going DEEP....
 

I'm not surprised how uneducated some class racers are and this is exactly why DEEP was banned, they don't have a clue! Many of the same group still don't know how autostart works either with their cries about double bulbing.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

If you had two cars that ran 10.00 every pass, and the drivers always cut identical lights, ran dead heats every time, both shallow staged.

Then one deep stages to kill a tenth, they run heads up again. Do you really think the deep staged car that now shows a 10.10 on the clocks is going to get out run by about a car length by the shallow staged car that runs yet another 10.00?

Re: Going DEEP....
 

That is exactly what would happen.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

How is rolling in further, which is actually a very small head start, going to make that car lose a heads up by a car length?

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Because if they leave at the exact same time, the deep staged car will red lite (assuming the shallow staged car has a good light).

The shallow staged 10.00 car with a .000 light will start moving before the deep staged 10.10 car with a .000 light.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

The shallow staged 10.00 car with a .000 light will start moving before the deep staged 10.10 car with a .000 light.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, effectively giving the shallow staged car the head start.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Not sure what point you're making, but they both exit the starting line beam at exactly the same time, thereby starting the clocks at exactly the same time. The shallow car has a rolling head start, thereby giving him a quicker ET.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

I agree Mark.

I was actually addressing Ed's statement that the deep staged car would have the head start.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Ed Wright, with all due respect...you know nothing about deep staging. Reading your posts about this subject reminds me of Mark Twain. Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool,than to open it and remove all doubt. MJ

Re: Going DEEP....
 

keep hitting this with a rubber hammer

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Thank you I couldn't find the right words to use other than clueless idiot. I didn't want to say that.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

There are many more like him.:rolleyes:

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Typically, the primary purpose of going deep is to allow a driver of a slower car the ability to still leave off the 3rd amber. Correct?

One can still get awful close by counting the number of bump in's to get deep after lighting the staged light, then subtract one or two. Yes, not quite as precise as actually turning off the prestage but again, darn close. I would think the difference could be made up with car adjustments.

Kind of the 'pert near deep but not officially deep.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

One thing that has not been brought up as an argument against Deep staging, and I'm surprised it has not been, is how someone can hide as much as a tenth of et as it pertains to hp factors in class racing. Someone who is trying to slow down trying not to go more than a second under and has all the allowable weight in could use this to their advantage.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

No doubt Bob is a great racer! I have watched him race at several events I go to each year...haven't had the misfortune of pulling up next to him in the lanes yet thankfully. I had forgotten that he drove a stocker regularly at some point, but it doesn't surprise me.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

I just caught up on the last few pages.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/...20130223203227

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Lol... Sorry Michael I couldn't stop myself!

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Is it ok to deep stage again in nhra and ihra again?

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Yes Mickey it is OK to go deep....all the bracket racers can do it, the pros can do it ...however because of the vocal majority of WHINERS in NHRA when you go deep ..be careful cause you can't turn the top bulb off. Some of the racers in the other lane just lose it and can't concentrate any more when that top staging bulb goes out......LOL......

Re: Going DEEP....
 

you are right mj just like taking the 2 step button off the steering wheel

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Thanks Ed for your wisdom, expertise and
valueable input on this matter !!!! ;)
Hopefully this clears it up for all.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

I guess humor doesn't resonate with some of the people who inhabit Class Racer.
BTW I had plenty of input when this topic first was debated. I was one of those deep stagers who was against eliminating it. But I moved on and worked to adapt. It worked out well for me. I had some very successful years as a low buck lower class racer.
As Ed O would say "have a nice day".

Re: Going DEEP....
 

To me it is simple. Reaction time plus et equals actual et. You go deep your reaction time is less but you et is greater. The actual et which is a combination of ET and reaction time pretty much stays the same. I run S/G, and if I cut a .02 lite and run a 9.90, then I roll in and get a .00 lite, I will run 9.92. That what I believe. Shallow stage and get a .040, and it will be a 9.88. But you have to keep that top bulb on, so you taking a gamble if you have to roll in.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Eliminating going deep will be a disadvantage to those who did it because it takes away the ability to precisely locate the car. So the option now is flicker shallow and stop or flicker and count bumps. Not sure how many racers this would affect and it is surprising how many are all over the place anyway. But it does take away a visual indicator of precise location which is unfortunate.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

There is no advantages to deep staging or shallow staging. Deep will just allow the racers with lower class cars to hit the tree a bit better.
Bottom line the rich don't want the poor competing in this class.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Think Mr. Williamson helped explain some of Mr.Wright's point: Being able to deep stage in Stock & Super Stock would be another method to protect your combination from horsepower.

Deep Staging would help low horsepower combinations and those who don't want to develop their race cars hit the tree better and there may be some added reaction time consistency when deep staging but there are some negative effects that can be exploited by smart racers.

For the foot brake bracket racers posting here: Why not make a rules change and allow No Box (trans brake with no delay box) legal for your series to align with the rest of the country as per Pro Eliminator at the Bracket Finals Final in Pomona, CA.and in most NHRA Divisions? So at No Electronics Bracket races you can Foot Brake Shallow or Deep or use a Trans Brake.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

HEY!!! You'd better watch that tone there, Sparky!

Re: Going DEEP....
 

I have my ring from stock eliminater. I am one of the foot brake racers posting. I do not deep stage but I think it should be allowed.
So you class clowns can frown upon us bracket racers all you want. Whats on your finger???

Re: Going DEEP....
 

There is no way to hide et with the timing system unless you are a sand bagger. But even that will show at half track!!

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Here in Illinois, "Pro" is footbrake and transbrake allowed at every track. I think there's only 1 or 2 tracks here that has a true "footbrake" class other than sportsman...and they are both outlaw.


The races I go to for "footbrake" only are bigger races (World Footbrake Challenge, Loose Rocker Promotions races, etc.) where the rules are explicitly set up for footbrake. I also go to a few races closer to home that are "No Box" which allow transbrakes/2 steps as well as footbrake. But the races where I run "a series" as you put it align with the NHRA rules for the Bracket Finals and Pomona.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Right. I forgot about all those -1.30 under cars that deep staged back in the day just to try to save their HP factor. :confused: LOL People have been protecting their HP for decades without deep staging. Deep staging is about slow-reacting cars or drivers being able to be competitive.

As I posted earlier, there is a huge difference in rollout possible from track to track due to variations in timing systems: as much as .06, and I've seen .04 difference between drivers and the "sweet spot" that works for *them*. Add in the variables of the car's power, suspension setup, shocks, tires, gear, converter, how the tire exits the stage beams, ad infinitum, you have a potentially MASSIVE range of reaction time variables. Just because one person at one track in one car has the optimum setup does not mean that another person does, or even the same person at another track. As I also pointed out earlier, with the level of competition today, just having a 'teen' light every once in awhile does not qualify as "hitting the tree". You need to have a narrow window, and be able to repeat consistently. "OK" is not good enough.

There is a wide swath of the country whose bottom-bulb class is still pure Footbrake. This is like asking transbrakes to be legalized in Stock. Some people like a little purity in the sport. (Kinda funny that Stock allows more driver aids than Footbrake!) Transbrakes are a completely separate topic from deep staging.

I'm not pushing for any rules changes. I'm well aware of how far gone they are. It's just an academic discussion. It's been a pretty revealing one, too. It's absolutely staggering how little some people understand how timing systems work.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

Amen, sir

Re: Going DEEP....
 

I have 30" tires on the front, 32 pounds of air in the slicks, my 60' range from 1.89 on cool days to 1.92 in the heat. I shallow stage and leave on the third amber. Once in a while it is a .000 and between a .030 I do not deep stage. I don't know how. But this seems to be working out OK until I decide to do something stupid like a .075 or worse.

If you have to do a lot of adjustments to hit the tree hard, maybe you need to change the air in your head.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA I see said the blind man.

Re: Going DEEP....
 

The .075 is probably your "natural" spot in the car, and the better ones are from counting the tree or otherwise taking a stab at it. Try hitting a .500 Pro Tree at a test and tune, and you will realize that you are not actually reacting to the 3rd bulb. Even in the Volare, I'm technically not seeing the 3rd bulb. When you can see the full tree, you have a subconscious anticipation of about .03. If I were to block the top two, I wouldn't have a prayer of having a decent light.

Billy Nees is the closest thing to a slow car driver reacting to the 3rd bulb. His physical reaction times are quick as a cat, and he drinks leaded coffee on top of that. But he is FAR from the norm. (Take that how you like it) ;)

Re: Going DEEP....
 

A big reason why I went stock eliminator racing was for a more pure footbrake. Would love to get rid of 2 steps and auto shift even though I can legally use both don't, not even the internal hydraulic 1-2 shift many use. Not using these aids adds variables to ET as well as deep Staging adds variables to RT.
Was at a race and at fuel check was pulled aside by a tech official who explained that Stock was Foot Brake and Trans Brakes were not allowed, another official went and checked my car durring the discussion and found nothing. Apparently someone on the starting line saw something. I explained to both that I was Purely Foot Braking not even a 2 step told them "it's just more stuff to break".

Heavy (which I loved) became Pro which is No Box in most of the country as you know. I didn't like the 9.0 ET break with the reassoning that Suoer Pro door car racers who were tired of racing dragsters would enter but but they didn't. There are some who would say Heavy went to hell when the ET brake was lowered to 10.0. I brought up No Box and trans brakes becasue like deep they add another varuable and for some consistency. Why not do what is done in much of the country?

There would be no argument against Deep Staging if Deep Stage Racers did not take advantage of thier Shallow Stage Opponents. Agree it's not all of them but there are plenty.