Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Nope.. Will get hp.. but no roll bar ..
Maybe down the road...but NHRA rules trump local track bracket rules at a sanctioned event.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yep, you are right.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Actually, the car would probably be in M/Stock afterwards anyway...going almost 1.50 under!
Fixed itself..

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Mr. Billy, I'm certainly not on here to aggravate you guys. But, with my simple country boy thinkin, it just seems to me like a good idea to ask people who know Stockers, about Stockers, rather than paying NHRA $70 or whatever to join NHRA, then read a rule book which I may not even understand, then find out that I can't build a Stocker that will run under. Now if I had plenty of $$ to blow, I'd spare no expense. I rather tell ya'll about the super clean car I found for $5000 and the $4000 paint job I was gonna get, and the $15000 Parsons and Myers engine I was gonna buy and the $3000 TH200, and etc, etc, etc. But unfortunately, that is not the case. FAR from it. But, isn't that part of the fun--trying to run the index on a very small budget.

Is that just stupid thinkin or what ? I could read a rule book a hundred times--even memorize it, word for word, and would still not learn any of the little tricks you guys know about Stockers.

So, if I have offended any, with my questions or this thread in any way, I apologize. For the time being, I'll ask a few more questions. If you guys had rather not answer them, I understand and hold no grudge. If I get no more helpful answers, I'll just back on outa here and not bother ya'll any more. :o

Many thanks to all who have been patient with me and have answered my dumb questions ! :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Another thing I did was go to Stock Eliminator races, being either Divisional, National or Stock/Super Stock combo event (Like ASRA around here) and look for cars running your body style and/pr combo. If the owner don't mind just look underneath or at car. That's how I got ideas to work I needed to do on frame. Sam Murray's stick shift Olds 442 is a good example for me. Also if you want to golf hang out with golfers, I always wanted to build and race a Stocker so I hung out with Class racers. Jimi Vignogna and his dad Lou helped me tremendously. Pate Henneberry, Joe Huestis and Clem Lachance others. Lou V was really happy with the power my 396-325 HP BBC was making as I was running higher MPH every week. He said if I go over 115 MPH he will sell all his Chrysler stuff and run Chevies.Should have seen his face when the following week I showed him a ET slip reading 117.11 MPH LOL Plus the help and support from Johnny Williams -RIP Coolest people in the world!
I personally looking forward being back out there this year Lord willing.

Will Lamprecht Big Chevy Stocker in progress

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, that would be GREAT ! Only problem is that the nearest class race that I know anything about is in Gilliam, LA, in Sept. They have one in Bell Rose, but that's a 6 hour drive. Then Dallas is 6 hours in the other direction. And I don't know one single class racer in my area. This is bracket country.

So, I'll have to get by with online info.

Breaker ! Breaker ! I went back to the ND site and although it said for NHRA members only, I clicked where it said something like "view rule book" and it started downloading a pdf rule book. So, now I have all the info I need, right ? :D

No, I'll read thru the Stock rules and ask ya'll about what I don't understand, which is likely to be a lot. There have been SO many changes in the rules since we ran a Stocker.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

That's the link I was referring too. Guess I didn't explain it clearly. With this being said, while I do admire the fact that you are searching for knowledge, (and this thread has been entertaining), I have to wonder why it would be for a class that you seem to feel like you would not have anywhere to race at? Not judging, just curious.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

oldskool - Are you in Monroe? If so, there are several old Stock/SS racers there. Also, Wesley Roberson is in West Monroe.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, I know of Wesley, since he use to be a div 4 tech director. But I don't actually know him. Even if he would talk to me, he would probably scare me off with his attention to detail !

I'm about an hour from Monroe. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

If you build a stocker, you'll need to make those tows.
And I agree with the comment about talking to, and getting to know racers in person. As much as you'll learn online, you'll learn that much more by getting to know people. What I do I know about stockers, I learned mostly from being there, wherever "there" is. -could be in somebody's garage, at the track, or?

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Unless it is a convertible like mine in which case you have no choice. ;)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK I can explain it where I understand it, don't know if anybody else can or not. But I'll give it a shot. But it will take a while to explain. Some of you guys may wanna skip this post. It will probably be long and boring.

(1) I started out racing a Stocker in '73. You can see some of the trophies I won my 1st two seasons, in my avatar pic.

(2) I built a serious(to me) Stocker, '68 Bird E/SA, in '75 and TJ won the 1st six races at our 2 local tracks, plus a few others during the season. I also upgraded my GTO that year and got it into the 12's for the 1st time.

(3) Then all the local tracks dropped class racing in favor of brackets. So we learned how to win at bracket racing. But I didn't like Stocker racing any less. It just wasn't available to us, without long trips. Now they are running it only 2 hours away, but only once a year.

(4) We ran a LOT of bracket races thru '79, then off and on thru 88. Then I stayed away from racing for about 20 years, to help run my dad's family business. And I'd always spent all our money on racing and made TJ live in a single wide trailer house. So, after the family business folded up, TJ got to move into her new house, and I got a job driving an 18 wheeler. Now, I'm retired and my little gov check goes to pay the house note, utilities and very little else. :( That's why this is a very low budget build.

(5) As I've already mentioned on this site, I got me a little min wage job just for racing $. It worked great. I bought a bracket car and then a former class car, along with a diesel crew cab and 2-car gooseneck. I was ready to race a full schedule at our local track in 2010, but the track never opened that year. If I'd just been patient, and saved my $, I could have been racing ever since then. But I got discouraged and figured the track would never reopen, like most of the other tracks we use to race. So, I got involved with dirt racing at our local track. Well, you can blow a lot of $ quick, dirt racin, and have nothing left to show for it. That's what I did. :(

(6) But as it turned out, some new guys took over the drag strip and started making improvements. They have really made it a nice bracket track now. I kept one of my bracket cars, but my little job fizzled out, and I haven't had the $ to race. I also have an old '68 bracket bird. I'm swapping some of my left over dirt cars and parts to a guy, for putting the bird back together for me.

As the finances are right now, I can only make a very few races. But I have several friends who'll haul 'em to the races for me. One of them would probably be glad to haul a Stocker to the Sept points race. And since I know I probably can't go to a lot of races(til the finances get better) I don't have a problem with only going to one Stocker race this year.

(7) A Stocker can pull double duty. There are probably LOTS of Stocker guys running their Stockers at bracket races. Many of 'em probably pay a lot better anyhow. So my Stocker would run more than one race a year. Hey, I knew a guy that only went to one big race a year with his Modified production Camaro. Don't think he ever got it down to the index. But he seemed to enjoy being in the big show.

(8) I went to a big, local bracket race a few years back and there was a pair of '69 Camaro Stockers there. So, me being the curious type, I went over to check 'em out. I believe they were running G/SA. They were his and hers cars--a husband and wife team. They had their permanent numbers and lots of decals, and both had a Q-jet. I mean if you know what a Stocker looks like, you could tell that these cars were the real deal. I think they both turned mid 11's.

Coming from my background, I thought these cars were really cool. :cool: I didn't know before that race that serious Stockers ran any bracket races. So that is one of the major things that put this idea into my mind. I can have a cool lookin Stocker AND run bracket with it, even if I can't get it under the index right away. I can use the bracket races for test and tune to continually get the car quicker, til it gets down to it's index. That part could be fun too.

Well I could go on and on. But it's midnite here and time to close it.

I'll just summarize it this way: I started with Stockers, I like Stockers, and I'd like to have another Stocker, whether I ever get it under the index or not. Some of you guys may not understand that. But that's as simple as I know how to put it. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I simply meant it would be easier/quicker for you to get most of your questions answered.

In my case I am on the verge of retirement...this is my last fling at it I suppose. I have yet to attend any major race with our car...been busy sorting it out so to speak. I do attend nearly all the Combo events at Bowling Green during the course of the year. My goal is to make a couple of races this year with either the Camaro or Mustang...which ever one proves to be the most consistent. My hunch is the Mustang will run further under it's index than the Camaro ever has right from the start...we shall see.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Oldskool, you didn't owe me a reply, but now I have a much better understanding of what you are trying to accomplish, and it makes more sense to me. Please continue your thread, I have actually enjoyed it!
I can understand where you are coming from. I have not ever raced Stock, but grew up helping my Dad racing Gas classes in the 60's and 70's. Over the years, I have owned multiple race cars, from 11 second VW's to 8.90 dragsters and an altered, 9 second NMRA Real Street Mustangs, and even a short stint with a Willie Rells P/S Camaro. I sold my business and retired 7 years ago at 45 with a few health concerns. One Pacemaker later, I feel great, and I want to go racing again, Like you, I don't intend to hit a national event trail, but being where I live, I am an hour from Charlotte, 2 hours from Atlanta, 1 hour from Rockingham, 3 hours from Silver Dollar, an hour from Carolina and also Orangeburg Dragway. I also have a small track 5 miles from the house. (Anybody remember Blaney Dragstrip in SC? I am 3 miles from where it used to be. Now it's a subdivision, but the streets are named after Garlits, Hubert Platt, etc.) I grew up watching guys like Mike Saye, Everett Keesley, Bill Howell, Boobie Hornaday, and even Johnny Dowey race NHRA, so I always wanted too myself. With a stocker, I can run Stock and hit a lot of Divisional (and eventually National) events without having to travel far, and bracket race in the interim. I am in the middle of a Mustang M/N Stock build. So again, please continue your thread, and good luck with whatever you decide to build.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I sold a couple of 283 stockers to the McIntosh clan form around the Calhoun-Ruston area and the Caldwell family raced for years out of Ruston. There are several others from Monroe, also. You best get accustomed to detail!

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I remember the name McIntosh, but right now can't quite remember the car they ran back then. I do know of the Cardwell family in Ruston. In fact I bought a set of used 9" slicks from them for one of my Stockers. Also, they built the '69 Tempest Stocker which I bought back in '09. I was surprised to hear that they built a Pontiac, since they had always run Chevy, as far as I knew.

The guy I bought the car from said they were going to try to race it, but could only get it down to within a tenth of the index, so they decided there was not enuff potential there to flog it any further, and sold it to him. Their choice of engines showed that they were not real Pontiac guys. I think they had always run mostly the 350 Chevy. So, they tried a 350HO Pontiac. But what they did not know is that there are lots of Pontiac engines with more potential because of a more favorable hp factor. The engine made 434hp on the dyno, but was not quite enuff for the combo. But hey, it sounded good and would have made a good bracket car.

That was just a little side trip there, for entertainment purposes. :D

Now, as for Wesley, I'm not ready for his level of scrutiny yet. When I get down to working out minor details, I may contact him.

The switchboard in the Tempest had Cardwell Motorsports printed on it. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, I been reading the Stocker rules. One working head and tail light, engine/belt driven alternator, electric water pump and fans, all dash components, controls, etc, in place, at least one batt in stock location.

Ya'll check me. Am I correct so far ?

Didn't see wiring harness mentioned. So--question: can all stock wiring be removed from car and new wires added, only to necessary points ?

Thanks !

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Correct.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Thanks !

Next question--Subject: Rear End

The Stock section has only 2 paragraphs about the rear end.----Section 10A , page 6

REAR END
... Distance between backing plates may not
be changed. Any gear ratio that fits third-member case or housing permitted. Limited-slip or ratchet-type rear ends permitted. Reinforcement of spring perch permitted. Spools permitted only with aftermarket axles. Aftermarket axles not required for front-wheel-drive vehicles. Larger brakes may be used. Replacement rear end may be narrowed or widened to obtain original rear-end width. Bracing or beefing up the rear- end housing permitted...

It says that limited slip units may be used--axles and C-clip eliminators not mentioned with these.

Then it says spools are legal--only with aftermarket axles. Does not mention mini spools or C-clip elims.

Question: Is this covered in another section, like maybe general safety regulations or ? I'd heard that mini spools are not legal and all C-clip axles must use C-clip elims. So, what's the rule on this and where in the rule book is it found please ? Thanks !

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

If you look at the bottom of the section you quoted, it refers you to General Regulations section 2:11 You can go there and read the rest of the rules regarding rearends, Basically states welded spider gears illegal, aftermarket axles and safety retention device required anytime spool is used, regardless of ET. Also lists all classes that require aftermarket axles and retention devices..... basically anything 10.99 or quicker. Otherwise C-Clips are legal.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, thanks ! It appears that as long as you have any kind of posi unit, you can run even stock axles without C-clip elims, in the slower Stock classes.

2:11 REAR END
Welded spider gear rear ends prohibited in all classes. Fourwheel
drive permitted per class requirements. Aftermarket axles
and axle-retention device mandatory on Top Fuel, Funny Car,
Pro Stock, Top Alcohol Dragster, Top Alcohol Funny Car, Comp,
Super Comp, Super Gas, Super Street, and 10.99 or quicker E.T.
cars; also mandatory on any car (regardless of class or E.T.) with
a spool.

We've run low 12's and high 11's without ever breaking an axle. So do any of you guys in these slower classes run Stock C-clip axles ? Or is it better to at least buy some that are a little stronger ?

I assume that Moser axles are one of the highest priced. I see several axles that are said to be stronger than stock. So, for anybody with a low budget build, what is the cheapest good quality axles that would be plenty strong for a high 12 - low 13 sec Stocker ?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ms...model/firebird

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-700116/overview/

Do all 8.5" ten bolt car rears have C-clip axles ? Anybody know if the 8.5 rear in a '77 Bonneville would have the same length axles as a '71-'81 F-body ? Or maybe a '73-'77 A-body ?

Some say a '77 wagon might have some odd ball rear--not an 8.5. Anybody know for sure ? :confused:

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Just my opinion, but I would not run a car with slicks without some type of axle retention. If it is a strip only vehicle I would go with a spool right from the start. I bought some 31-spline c-clip axles cheap for the Mustang, but still use a spool and c-clip eliminators.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Actually, Moser is one of the lowest cost aftermarket axles available. Strange Engineering is a step above, with Mark Williams at the top of the heap. Personally, I wouldn`t bother with any form of limited slip differential, a spool is lighter, stronger,and cheaper, and has NO moving parts inside to break or wear out. And stay away from "mini spools", as all the power gets driven thru the spider gears pin. I understand your budget concerns, but having to spend the money on decent components after you break the cheap stuff is not cost effective.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

So are you saying that a high 12 or low 13sec footbraker has the power to shear the spider gear pin ?

Aprox how much ET can be gained by using a light spool rather than a posi unit ? :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

In my experience, I usually see the carrier housing crack when using a mini spool. With spools available in the $120 range new, I agree on not using a factory carrier. And if using a mini spool, you would still have to use axle retention, so probably not much difference in price to use a spool.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Mini spools still use the C-clips. So does that mean that NHRA requires elims with mini spools, even with aftermarket axles ? If so, then it appears that the only 2 logical choices are either a posi or a full spool with elims.

Since I can't install the elim kit myself, I'd come out better with a good posi and good c-clip axles. We never had any problems with stock GM posi units. But if I buy a new posi, what is the best type ? -- clutch type, Detroit locker, or ? Looks like a complete aftermarket 12 bolt is $3000 + :(

What ever happened to the good ole days, when I could buy a stock 3.73 posi out of a BB Chevelle for $100 and race it for 3 years + ? :(

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Correct.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

The rules say axle retention device with spool. Mini Spool is still a spool, even though it uses a stock carrier. Basically, the idea is if the rearend is fully locked, they want axle retention devices.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

No. Look for mid 70's BOP mid size with 11 in. brakes.
No.
Maybe.
BOP 77 and newer wagons have a larger carrier and wider 31 spline axles (not 28)
Wagon rear is 2" wider than sedans. ( Stand back and look at the quarters.You'll see it. Made to put a 4x8 in the cargo area)
Nothing else fits them.
I know you're gonna ask if you can put a 8.5, 28 spline sedan rear in a wagon.
Technically no...because it's narrower..
With the right offset wheels? Well ,you're on your own there.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Looks like that sorta narrows it down to a Bonnie for a '77 build.

OK, you said the odd ball rear began in '77. The '76 Lemans wagon has the same 116" wb. So does it share the same rear as any of the other '73-'77 models ? 8.5 but wider ? And if so, is there a possibility that the '76 wagon rear may have the big brakes and bolt-in axles you mentioned ? :confused:

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Probably does. No first hand experience though.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Cut the axle tubes and widen them if that is the car you want to build.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Do we have another Barge on the way ?

My Cougar has a 9" in it but I have had a mini spool in it for years. Moser said it would be plenty strong. When I recently changed gears, I got another one from Jegs. It had 4 hole's in it for use with the 4 spider diff's.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I'm not that worried about the width. I don't think they are going to measure the width of the rear at a division race. Who'd care ? But I'd like to find an 8.5 that will bolt right in, which has the factory bolt-in axles. That way, I can just buy a decent posi and gears, then race it. We've never broke a stock axle. But if I break one of these, then I'll buy some better ones. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

REAR END
Original rear end may be replaced with another from the same
automobile manufacturer; truck rear end prohibited. Aluminum
center section permitted only on vehicles that were originally
equipped with same." Distance between backing plates may not
be changed." Any gear ratio that fits third-member case or
housing permitted. Limited-slip or ratchet-type rear ends
permitted. Reinforcement of spring perch permitted. Spools
permitted only with aftermarket axles. Aftermarket axles not
required for front-wheel-drive vehicles. Larger brakes may be
used." Replacement rear end may be narrowed or widened to
obtain original rear-end width." Bracing or beefing up the rearend
housing permitted.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

In 1977 Pontiac downsized the Cats and Bonnies--only a 116" wb. A 2-door Bonnie only weighs about 125 lbs more than a TA, and about a hundred lbs LESS than a Lemans.

I really can't imagine shearing a pin with a slow footbraker. We made hundreds(or maybe well over a thousand--didn't keep track) of passes with our 455 bracket cars, using mini spools, without braking any part of the rear. But, Tony said he's seen the carrier cracked, when using a mini. :eek:

Don't know if your 9" carrier is thicker and less prone to cracking or not.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, I read that. So are you saying that you think the tech guys are actually going to measure the rear end at a division 4 race, when I'm just barely running my index ? I can't see a performance advantage, that would make a difference to anybody.

Again, that's just country boy thinkin. I've never raced a Stocker at the division level. But I've recently read that unless you set a National record, there are no tear downs. So, I reason that if no tear downs, certainly they wouldn't care if your rear end was a couple of inches too short. Is that a reasonable assumption ?

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

That's how it begins oldschool. Nobody is looking so it's ok to run different heads, larger valves, non-approved pistons, higher lift cam...see where this is going? ;)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, I think I understand what you are saying. See if I got it right. You feel that EVERYTHING has got to be absolutely legal, including the exact width of the rear end, even to run at a division level race, or don't even take it to the track.
Is that accurate ?

I have a question for you. I've read about the acid ported heads, and the new process that the top name Stocker head shops use to open up the Stock heads for the high dollar Stock racers. I read that many of the quickest cars use these heads and get by with it. So do you consider these heads illegal, even tho the tech guys pass 'em ?

Do you think it's fair for guys running these heads to win their class at a National event, or set a National record, or win any of the big races ?

Do you think it would be worse for me to run a rear that was a couple of inches too short, in order to save some $, than for these guys to win with modified heads ?

If you were racing at the same race I was, would you protest my car or tell one of the tech guys that my rear end was 2 inches too short, and suggest that they measure it to see ? I personally would not care what rear end you had, or how wide the housing was. It would be fine with me if you wanted to run a 9" Ford or a Dana 60.

Hey, if I understand the rules correctly, except for heads up runs, both Stock and SS now run breakout bracket rules. So what difference does it make how wide your rear end housing is ? You think that might be the reason the tech is a little slack at division level races ?

Which item has a performance advantage ?-- the bogus heads or the shorter rear end housing ? If I go to the expense of having a stock housing lengthened 2 inches, and buying new axles to match, how much slower will I go ? :confused:

I

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

So what I am hearing is that since others cheat, then it's permissable for you too also? I understand what you are saying about it not being much of a performance advantage, but it's still against the rules. Why go into a build with the idea that you are going to start out being illegal?