Re: Econo Modified
 

I've seen those spec heads where the logo is cast into the floor. Those could get the regular undercover style port work, and a CNC shop could machine the logo back in. If the legal head comes with a machined logo, the porter does all his finish work first. If the logo is cast in, the heads get the finish work after the CNC'ed logo is done. Just mentioning because it will happen.

Its like the NASCAR Late Model Stock round track cars. ( primary market for the W2 and 351N.). They have little 2-bbls. specific intake, and head part numbers. No porting allowed on either. Many strict rules all the way to, and including the primary tube size and collector type and size. The result has been a high "dollar-per-HP" ratio. A "will pass tech" 2-bbl that dynos any amount measurable better is suddenly worth a bunch. Same with every other spec'ed part. Add in the regular trips to the barn if you run good, all these rules made the class more expensive.

There is nothing I'd love more than an affordable heads up class. I hope it can be worked out so big spenders advantage can be minimized. It would be a hit with spectators and racers.

On the SS/CS thing. Who is/was pushing for the new head rules? As they stand now, Chevy, Ford, and Dodge guys have zero to bitch about. The potential is as evenly matched as you'll find anywhere. Just who had to go and cry for a new head? If it was a well connected racer, you'll still suck because the right people can set records with any of the current brands. If it was corporate, remember Top Stock.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Randy,
If you consider the indexes and records in SS/Modified and Comp classes, the automatic transmission cars are faster than the clutchless stick cars. Considering this assumption, the automatic transmission cars should be even faster than the clutch stick cars.
There are many clutch cars that can be shifted without clutch.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Randy ...it should be close. I have always been totally clutch assisted.......you tell me
I use the clutch at every gear change..I have to , its an old Nash , so I have to be gentle LOL
At this event I wasn't allowed to use the 2 step so I was just playing around with launch RPM ( this wasnt a typical launch RPM )

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l3WxrHNIHA"]Stick Shift Drag Racing - YouTube[/ame]

Re: Econo Modified
 

Been told two stories; someone complained about the valve angles on the W2 and N351 cylinder heads and the other story about lack of Bow Tie Vortec Phase Two heads which it is a lot of baloney.

Re: Econo Modified
 

The world is full of people who will spend $250K to win a $50 trophy.

You cannot outlaw money in racing.

Too many rules stifles innovation, which takes the reward for work out of the class and brings money in.

More rules = more money.

Rules written to save racers money often, maybe even usually, do not.

Racers are not always the best people to make rules.

Usually, track owners and promoters do as bad as racers.

All three mentioned above have a personal agenda, and even the best of them are biased toward that agenda.



What is needed as much as anything is good promotion by good honest promoters.


The truth is, if you really want good rules, pay Wesley Roberson, Dave Ley, Travis Miller, and a couple of good engine builders to work on the rules for you. The resulting rules should end up cost effective and enforceable.

If you want to try to start the class, start as a part of other non NHRA controlled events, or better yet, series.

Good luck to anyone trying to make a class like "econo" modified happen. It would be fun, and interesting.

Re: Econo Modified
 

x2

Re: Econo Modified
 

OK. One at a time. I've talked to a rep at brodix, and if my memory serves me right, this was 6 years ago, THERE IS NO WAY TO CHANGE THE HEAD, AND INSTALL A NEW SPEC LOGO, OR PART NUMBER WITHOUT BEING CAUGHT. HAVE AN ORIGINAL HEAD THERE TO MEASURE, AND COMPARE!!! Damn guys, I think I could catch that. The problem is, you'd have to have some guts, and kick them out, and fine them BIG TIME! I know Al Parker said if they ever do anything like run this class, let him know the rules, and he could fine print it to be so defined, anything touched, not allowed, would be self evident. I don't know if any of you guys know him, but he is a genius. This is 2014. The tech. to catch these guys, is simple, and unbelievable. I've seen a set of "Under cover" ported heads, and as dumb as I am, I can tell they've been altered. And Joe, getting ready to watch your video. Now, for comp autos. THEY ARE 250 lbs, lighter then the clutch guys. Take that into consideration. I've already explained how to mount a camera on the cage like we did, if anyone is suspected of not clutching. That will cure that little problem. Worked for us.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Joe, sweet video. You'd fit right in. And, you were clutching for sure, but very good at it by the way.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Now, back to SS\CS. I think the heads are close right now. Look what Manns, Bogner, and Venice Perno have done. Leave it alone, but they won't.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Mans is no longer in SS/CS; he moved to SS/BS.
He has his SS/CS engine for sale on this site.
I presume other GM racers are the ones that made the request.

Re: Econo Modified
 

In comp, the automatics still get a 250 lb weight break even though they are in separate classes from the stick cars, so the ets aren't comparable.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Thanks........its a blast to drive. Gee , I wonder what a spec head and 1- 4 would do to my performance.
Funny how heads are a huge talking point here and I just sent mine to Larry Meaux looking for more power:D

Re: Econo Modified
 

Joe. With a spec engine designed right, it would run better then you think. If it ever comes to fruition, I'd help you any way I could.

Re: Econo Modified
 

In SS Modified most of the Auto classes get 5% or 250 .Which ever is least.
So it figures out more like 150-175 for most of everthing. I like the idea of short spots. Back when I ran my tracks in the 70's (Before the bracket race foothold) we had a "Street modified class" it was based on Lb per cu in. If I remember right we had either 5 or 6 classes and no spot was over a tenth per class. Some spotted races looked almost heads up. It was very popular. Point is some combinations can be equalized through a short spot and the spectators almost see a headsup race.
BTY: The Brodix logos for the spec heads are cast in. Bump them with a grinder or mill and it is pretty evident. I've bought several sets of their APBA and ASCS heads that were QC'ed and taken the logos out. I've flowed the heads before and after the logos and they really don't make much difference. The purpose of the logo is to stop massive porting not be a restrictor in the port.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Good points Adger. We went .1 per 1\2 lb. And the racing was real close from a 5 lb. per cube, to 11.5 lb.per cube.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Randy
I am curious about the Cobalts engine. Builder , parts etc etc How it differs from mine.
PM me ....

Re: Econo Modified
 

Adger,

I remember Bunker Hill, here in Indiana had a class of that type back in the early 70's. All I remember of it was it was lbs per cubic inch and like yours was 5-6 classes. I believe the rules then were stock unported iron heads, a single 4 barrel. Other than that it was pretty wide open. Back then it was pretty much geared toward street cars. We were running stock so didn't pay that much attention to it. Concept wise sounds a lot like what is being discussed here.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Re: Econo Modified
 

Oh well. It is still entertaining. The horse doesn't feel a thing.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Now thats entertainment. Someone with a sense of humor. THanks... Now for anyone who cannot afford a New Copo, Mustang or other 50,000car the thread is open. Anyone ever comment whether they had contacted NHRA?

Re: Econo Modified
 

I have, but they never responded.

Re: Econo Modified
 

That's normal for NHRA.
Bob Lasko

Re: Econo Modified
 

I really didn't expect them to Bob. I doubt they're waiting around to make decisions on what I think. By the way, if you don't mind telling. What heads do you run on your SS\CS motor. It runs very well.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Randy,
Head on my motor are the phase 2 vortec from gm. they are worked on by Dave jack in New Jersey. He has done wonders with the heads. Those head were on the 312 engine. I am putting the phase 1 vortec head on the 312 and using it for the 2nd engine.
I have a 317 engine that will get the phase 2 heads, with a new cam. The only problem that I have is the intake is for bow tie heads, need to have a new intake made, but the engine and head guys said that I would get more out of a cam change.
Being 61 years old, I am just in a maintance mode, no more going fast. Leave that to the younger guys.
By the way, it was not me that ask for the other 14 degree heads.

Bob Lasko
one of the original C/SM guys from the start

Re: Econo Modified
 

Bob, you had a C/SM back in the day? I had a 292", 305", and a 317". 461X heads.
You still have that stuff? How cool!

Re: Econo Modified
 

No Bob, I never thought it was you who asked for the 14 degree heads. It wasn't me for damn sure. They'd listen to me about as much as they do on the spec thingy. I'm just glad you have the vortec bowtie stuff, because you've ran some killer numbers yourself. You have, if I'm not mistaken, ran some 40's, and maybe high 30's? I ran 461X's for a couple of years in SS\CS in 86, and 87. But only went out to NHRA twice, and ran a best .17 under, but we were 170 lbs. over wt. but that's the motor we had, so we ran it. With wt. out might have, I state "might" have ran .25 under.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Question. If we were wanting to make this an easy class to get into, and reduce the entry cost, how about the heads planned with the short block being any SS base motor like the flat top 350s . Any comparable Ford Flat top or Chrysler? that would work? All the rest of the rules unchanged.... Kills the compression race but also has a BIG group of potential racers who could just buy heads and keep the SS trick stuff if they did not like how the Econo Mod deal went and wanted to return to the SS class they previously fit. I know Aluminum rods were mentioned and Cam relocation etc were questions but...

Re: Econo Modified
 

Ed,
When I started to get serious about running in NHRA back in the mid to upper 70's, I ran in C/SM in Modified Eliminator. I started with a 67 Nova, a real L79 SS car. I put a 305 together with the turbo head at first with an m22 4-speed with a 12 bolt rear out of a Camaro. Then after breaking the Trans a number of times went to a hemi 4-speed that I got from Toni File. We ran on 10 inch tires with frame connectors. Ran with the likes of Charlie Daniels. Just before the split to super Stock I went to the 461 heads or vice a versa. Those were the days that we had a real lot of fun, 10,000 rpm. Then I got divorced and quit racing. Then in 1988 came back out with the Nova with the big tires, 3 years later the Camaro that I am still running.
I still have an old set of turbo heads and some old 4 speed stuff. every thing else has be thrown out or sold.

Bob Lasko

Re: Econo Modified
 

Randy,
Did run in the 40's and did come close to the 30's but did not hit them. hopefully this year at Atco Open in April. Should put my engines in you Cobalt lol.

Bob LASKO

Re: Econo Modified
 

Ha! Thanks Bob. But I'm sure your F body is a little more sorted out then the cobalt. Our 92 camaro ran a best 6.21 in the 1\8th, and a best of 9.82 in the 1\4. The cobalt, with the same drivetrain went 6.16, and 9.76. Both were shifted using the clutch, but when we switched to the clutchless with the SS\DM motor, we only picked up .04. Camaro, 1.29 60 ft, cobalt 1.28 with the the phase 2 bowties, and a 1.26 with the dart buick. There is more left in the cobalt, but I'm almost 59, and Steve Thompson is 49, and we're both a little burned out. Every race they have close is in the dead of summer, and 300 degrees out, and it just ain't as fun as it was when we were 18. When we went to Cordova, it was like 96 degrees, and miserable.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Bob, I did too. Had a '69 Camaro, running Modified here in Div 4. Took the points lead about mid season, lost to Bob Vanderley at the last race. Ended up second.
We weren't allowed the turbo heads in C/SM then (Don't remember if they were allowed in B/SM) Had to be production car heads, in C, those never came on a car. I had Turbo heads on my 317" for IHRA, where they were legal. For sure faster than the 461X heads. I did the turbo heads myself. My fastest NHRA heads were from Lee Shepard. Had three sets from different shops. Garley Daniels put me onto running 2" headers. Also an Air Speed Engineering intake manifold. Garley is a great guy. I never could run with him. Very fast guy.
It was 10.5" tires we were allowed. Also a 750 carb. IHRA allowed an 850, turbo heads and 11.5" tires. Even my IHRA 317" liked the. 750 better.
Fun cars.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Let's hear some more stories
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Econo Modified
 

Are there any years left in any of us to support this class? Most of us are out of racing a couple of years. Do we have a driver, son or daughter to carry on this idea? My daughter would LOVE to jump into one of these cars if we could get it going. Many 50s guys on here who are interested?

Re: Econo Modified
 

I would try to drive at first, but I have not driven since 2005. But my son, now 28, is one of the best. He drove the cobalt at Bethany one night, (Steve let him after we were done that night) and did fine. He also drove about every weekend in a car that needed a driver, because all points there went with the car. So he has about fifty passes under his belt, and was consistently in the low 4's on reaction, on a pro tree.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Dick and Randy,

I think you would be VERY surprised at the amount of people who would do this. I am in the process of building a Stock Eliminator Nova but I also have a '63 Corvette hardtop that already has the narrowed frame rails and Dana. Needs MUCH work but I would do this. I am in my early fifties and grew up watching Modified Eliminator. Was just TOO young to do it back then. As someone stated on this post, the cars would have to debut as a racing series at, I believe, divisionals before NHRA would even begin to look at it. I was mentioning this to my engine builder and the first thing out of his mouth was "use a spec head". Where have we heard this before?????

Re: Econo Modified
 

Todd, glad to hear I ain't the only idiot that thinks this would work. I also have Chris Paget of Comp Cams, Al Parker, of Parker engines, (he builds a lot of spec sprints), and the editor of Drag Illustrated, Wyatt Halden interested, and said he would put out a huge article on it if it evolved into a class. Does anyone remember the Midwest Drag Magazine that promoted an econo class dragster\altered with flat tops, and hydraulic cams? It never got off the ground for three reasons. One, they never gave it a real chance, two, any iron head, that I think you could modify, and three, no one even knew it existed. We damn sure don't want to make the same mistakes. Anyone that wants to slam this as eventually an out of control class, needs to understand there would be NO GREY AREA! The reason their econo class never took off was the unlimited selection, and modifications allowed to the head. In that case, yes, comp guys would rule. The head is the key, and the one truly limiting factor.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Randy, please explain the Cam and spring specs. Any rev kit rules?
Any Div 3 interested parties?

Re: Econo Modified
 

We never had a cam spec in spec, which was our top class. But we had a .500 lift max in stock, .600 inch max in modified stock, and stock option. It was easy to check with a dial indicator at the valve. The Brodix spec head for Ford, Chevy, and Mopar will only except 1.55 springs, nothing larger. I think a .700 lift max at the valve will save money on valve train in spec. I found no performance difference with a cam basically in that range with a spring at 350# on the seat, and 850# over the nose, then with a spring at 285# on the seat, and 675# over the nose. So, I think it would take a lot of expense out of the valve train. Now then, if you allow unlimited lift, however, it would come into play. We were successful in turning 9,600 rpm with the lighter springs, you just had to stay on top of them. I don't care either way on rev kits. I won't use one, but I say go for it. There is less HP with one installed, so I don't think it's an issue.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Spec heads would be the way to go.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Dick,
I'm in div 3,and 46 years old, modified is what I wanted to race,I was trying to get there when IHRA still had it,but did'nt make it in time,sold that car.
The spec head would put it within reach for me,alot of exotic heads are'nt that expensive by theirselves,but by the time you get everything to go with them the price goes way up,then a year or two later,there's a better setup you need to compete.
I maybe able to get my hands on borrowed car,and put spec head engine together,but would take me some time.
Mike Taylor 3601