Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Barry, as I stated you can't prove me wrong. Peter and Kyle had a vision for big $ bracket racing which is not NHRA class/divisional racing and also doesn't draw spectators other than bracket racers watching on Motormania TV and they can watch from their home, office, car, beach, etc. and it costs them nothing to do so. You offer nothing that is a real viable solution to put spectators in the stands at a divisional because there is no solution for fans that don't exist for what we do.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Why do you feel it is so important to keep repeating the same argument?

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Why do they keep repeating the same argument that spectators that don't exist are the key to making divisional great again?

what part of the TRUTH and the FACTS don't you like?

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

This thread really brings me back to a few years back with the YB Nationals at Cecil, now granted it's a different breed of racers (Pro Mod, 10.5 Outlaw, Etc), the event was huge but was growing so big that they couldn't finish the 600+ cars in a weekend if they had weather issues and the sportsman were being pushed to late Sunday Night / Monday morning. The promoter and track decided that those classes were going to be a pre-register only for the next year taking 40 and qualifying 32, of course it filled quickly just like a NE does but those who didn't make it made the argument that they bring all the spectators in, the fans come to see them only (Not Pro Mods or 10.5 outlaw) so they decided to form their own race at Maple Grove (8.50, 10.00, 11.50.Pro Dial) on the same weekend and it was a huge bust but, YB was packed that weekend proving their theory wrong. The event has gone back to its regular format now but, I think it proves that as much as we argue on here about .90 cars, Juniors, Stock/SS we have to realize WE ARE NOT THE SHOW and never will be, we are fillers. I know that will hurt people's feelings, I'm sure I will get tomato's thrown at me next year but, we have to face the facts.

The most successful Divisionals on paper have a show associated with them, Norwalk D3 race, New England D1 Race, Sometimes Maple Grove D1 race in May but, only the diehard people want to come at 9am in the morning to watch the sportsman, it's like going to a sporting event, they want to be entertained for 3-5 hours at the most, not 12 hours and they want to get the best bang for their dollar, it has to be a show (Pro Mods, Wheel standers, Alky Cars, Jet Cars, Fireworks) but that also comes at a cost, these special event cars are not racing for free, I helped out at MG before Kyle bought it with some of the previous employees and can tell you - Jet Cars $1,000 - $2,000 per car to make two passes, they get paid if they make a run or not (weather, etc).

Let's also think why did the entry fees for D1 races go up from $200 to $225 in 2023? The reason is because the track owners told NHRA they aren't making any money at these Divisional races...I can tell you we're glad it was ONLY $25 increase because it was on the table to be much more.

Also, for those of you who think I haven't beaten this drum before with a DD - here is an e-mail to Bob Lang from 2011 about the same topic we are talking about 12 years later in which I was told he's brought this up at the D1 meeting in January in 2012...did it happen, only track owners at that time would know...

From: Rob Keister
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 3:11 PM
To: Bob Lang
Subject: Quick Question

Dear Bob,

The reason for my e-mail is a recent discussion I had with some racers. A few racers came to me regarding this issue since I help out Lucky with MASGA and I’m also the President of the Super Comp Series. The discussion that was brought up was about how can we promote sportsman racing better and get more fans to a Lucas Oil Series Races. I know at a few tracks this year they did a special promotion for fans such as Carloads for $25.00 at Maple Grove, Atco had a special “Buy 1, Get 1 ½ off” on Saturday and so forth. The real only good turn-out seemed to be at Epping where you had 10,000 people show up for the race on Saturday Night. Not saying the other promotions were a flop for the track owners but, I don’t think it was the turnout they were looking for. I know from a fan and racer aspect the promotions seemed to be announced on a Monday or Tuesday before the event and many fans were already committed to other things on the weekend. I know I handed out about 15 of the coupons at my office for the Atco Race but, most of the people already had something going on that weekend.

As a promoter myself I know how it’s hard to get people to come to a race when the economy is in the toilet and people are more worried about putting a meal on the table rather than spending the day at the track but, you give them a deal in advance they may just come check it out. What I was wondering is if we could put something together for 2012 as in a division 1 marketing program. I know Gary from PC Richard & the Alessi’s normally have their rigs at the track a few days in advance of a Lucas Oil Event and if we could set something up like NASCAR does at a local Wal-Mart, PC Richards, Etc with the cars out for people to see and look at I think people might get interested in coming to see them. I know I’ve looked over Gary’s Mustang a few times and I think people would see that car and be like “This car, which looks like my street cars…run’s what??” Maybe offer up discounted tickets at these events to people with a “See these cars and many more at Atco Raceway August 5th to 7th”. Or maybe do something similar to what NHRA did this year with the 60th anniversary “walk the track program” get someone like Manzo or Kosky to walk Atco with their memories of running at the track. Last but, not least maybe go around and visit automotive technical schools or automotive dealerships in the areas with cars and discounted tickets.

I don’t see much new blood in the series due to cost and not understanding the classes. Like why does a Super Gas car leave the line then fall on its face and take back off? Maybe have a few racers at the local dealerships explain how the classes work and what a throttle stop does and why when Stock or Super Stock come up it was 10.50 on the scoreboard but, he runs 9.40…I don’t get it?

Rob Keister
1198 S/G

Here also is some pics from NHRA TV of the Norwalk D3 race, the less filled stands are when the sportsman (Stock/SS, .90) are running and the filled stands are when Alky, PM, etc are running....yes they did run R1 od SC & SS in between Alky with the stands somewhat full but, like anything else unless you go to the bathroom or want to grab food, you don't want to miss the action.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

As long as there are fans there. feel free to watch what you want. Back in the stone age before Jeg's and Summit. There were local speedshops promoting up and coming races. Radio channels giving free tickets from sponsors. GREAT FOOD! Entertainment for little future racers. Sorry but wheel standers and jet cars make good advertizing. Get enough folks there. Maybe the bathrooms will be to busy and the fans can watch the real show.

Paul

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

The best divisional races I have ever attended was a long time ago when they had TF Fc and pro stock at the divisional level. It was like a mini national event. The stands stayed packed.
Even if you could get some of the low budget teams close the the event to come match race at those races it would help. Advertise it and the spectators will come. Concession stand money would sky rocket. Most races don’t go to the track for food they bring theirs.
There is no advertising for divisional races so no one knows they are happening.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Maybe if the big PRO’s are too busy or too expensive for a divisional they can try to book some of the nostalgia cars and do some advertising. The March meet gets quite a few spectators.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Returning to the original question. How about this angle.

Is combining Divisionals with a Swap meet and a Car show possible?

Incorporate Class Elimins in the program so there's no need to explain the handicap part to new or uninitiated spectators. Then come Sat evening and Sun, run it as a natural Divisional that we know it to be. The car show and swap meet crowd could linger, watch, or move along with drag racing as background music. The In N Out corporate 75th birthday event at Pomona was a huge success and it included drag racing. If the goal is spectators in the stands, there has got to more to catch the interest of people. They're out there, they're just budgeting their money.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

they're not out there

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Ed, I disagree with them not being out there, as I pointed out in my SEGA post.
The problem is that spectators don't want to watch what we do.It's boring to them.

First of all , there isn't enough time for a booked in show , with the current structure.
It's going to take a total re-design, and you guys are not gonna like it, when it's done.

Some ideas:
Single Divs only. Start qualifying on Thursday.
32 car fields on Saturday. Start elims mid day

.90 cars ..Closest to dot 90 qualifiers
(You will lose very few, because most can run .90 , either if they're lucky or good)

S/SS..You could do 32 fastest, but you'll lose guys at the bottom. Supposedly what lowering indexes will do. So that leaves RT's, just like the shootouts.

Top this'n that ? You tell me.

Alcohol ..Four remaining pairs, two of each categories, under the lights. The good guys don't usually blow up and cause a bunch of down time.

Now you've got some time Saturday for a booked in show..
Bring in a couple of the Street Criminals. Whodaddy or Daddy Dong .. whoever they are. Spectators will be out in droves, buying T-shirts, drinking beer, etc.

So far, we haven't lost many of of our current paying race entrants.

See, I told you you weren't gonna like it. ;-)

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

So just writing out thoughts here...

What problem are we trying to solve?

Is the problem that Divisionals are not profitable to the track owners and so we need more spectators? If so, then your answer is pretty simple. Partner with a "sideshow" or two (meant in the most respectful way possible) that gets people in the door and gets them to spend money. Who cares if it's street outlaws, jet cars, pro match races (like the 2 Elite PS cars at Rock Falls in D5 this year), etc.

Or is the problem that we need spectators to grow S/SS racing and grow the winning purses, etc.? If so, I think Ed has a valid point. It'll be quite hard if not impossible - for a variety of reasons.

Ultimately maybe Mark has the best point here. No matter the outcome, the hard-core class racers and fans won't like it. It's either the classes get overshadowed by the money making show and people get upset, or the classes will get restructured so badly and people will get upset.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

One other way, it came to mind remembering a T&T I went to at Bakersfield. There were a drove of imports making passes with plenty of their friends watching. Maybe add one more category of quickest 16 imports. It will bring quite a few of the younger generation into the mix.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

I like this. Street legal, Tagged/Insured, and a DOT tire. I'd go to the fence and watch that. The only debate would be the driveline...The FWD guys won't come out if the AWD (Subaru) or RWD (Supra) cars are running with them. I'd rather see it a FWD only class.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

A lot of the appeal to casual fans was lost long ago when cars started being hauled in enclosed trailers, as a young kid it was a thrill to see these cars in motel lots or pulling down the road, sadly those days will not be back.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Steve, I don't know about the tagged/insured thing but the FWD/import stuff is plenty popular! If you have nothing to do some Saturday, go to a Cecil Co. T&T. 1/4 mile, fully prepped track and on a nice day, 300+ cars and probably half of them pretty quick FWD stuff. I'm impressed and love to watch!

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

I know it's plenty popular. My thought is the tagged/insured/FWD thing would draw out more casual participants...such as a HS/College age. Leaving it wide open leaves the door open for Comp cars to enter...after all, this year's national champion is Toyota powered.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

I was getting to this next. Thanks

Some of you might remember Indy tech in at the shopping center down the street?
I can't see why something like this wouldn't help to bring the locals out to a Divisional.

In today's world, Mr. Top 10 rolls into town with his rig, pulling a big white box.
All the locals see is what could be Joe's Lawn Care. or Mom and Pop RV-ing, with their Jeep inside. In other words, no help getting the word out about the race this weekend.

How about this:
My revamped schedule has time on Thursday and Friday evenings for a free car show in the staging lanes. Let the locals in , no charge ,after the day's qualifying.
Sort of a Meet the Racers night.
They might just pay to come back on Saturday to watch their new friends.
How many here , of those who want to make Divs great again, would participate?

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

We tried to bring some Pro Mods to some local events at Bakersfield and it was explained to us that depending on what class cars and ET they run you have a whole new level of insurance costs as well as Safety personnel needed to run the Nitro or Pro Mods . Now with that being said I’m not sure if they can even add classes to the now Double Division races through the season ? The Bakersfield Double had a pretty high car count if I’m not mistaken. Bring back the days of Pro Stock , Wheelstanders, Jet cars , might attract more fans to the Divisionals . Please don’t flame me about Jet cars lol …

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Trailers don’t come into play in my opinion. Cars are outside their trailers all weekend for viewing. Enclosed is to deter theft and to protect your investments.
Tracks found an easy way to increase fees ( post covid) and they did. They don’t want to spend on jet cars or a pro mod show much less on advertising otherwise they would have already done that!
That’s why the Heritage Series is successful, they have fast exciting cars and they advertise! There’s your template!

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Barry, I think you miss the point, when cars were on open trailers the public outside the race track were able to get up close and interest was generated by people who may have never been exposed to drag racing, in the young kid who talks dad into going to the track, as I said I know those days are surely gone but it did make a difference at one time.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

That sounds like a great idea. Are they going to be made the show? If
not and they are already popular, why would they put up with NHRA, who they don`t really need.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

If I remember correctly, NHRA tried to have an import class, I believe it flopped…

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

That was the time when I was covering a lot of races. Yes, it was a mess. Off the top of my head, I'd estimate that if 50% of the cars made it to the finish line under power it was something special.

Lots of cars broke on the line or shortly thereafter as the racers and parts suppliers didn't seem to have any idea about an NHRA prepped track. Others would spit parts downtrack and there was a lot of cleanup required.

That's been a long while ago. The import thing was in its early days and it was the wild west for speed parts. From what I can see today, it has matured and along with tuners gaining knowledge the companies who are still around are making good, reliable, effective parts.

Would it be different now? I can't really say. It would be tough for a track owner to lean into this scene not knowing whether it was going to be a hit or else a huge nightmare that affects the entire event.

I think it would have the potential to make a big difference assuming a track owner or promoter has the guts and the pocketbook to give it a try.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

You guys are making this way too tough. Norwalk has been drawing crowds for their divisional races for years. I would suggest calling Bill Bader Jr up and asking how he does it.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

I think that the locale and access to a NHRA National Event can also contribute to spectator turnout. Until a few years ago, I lived in Western Canada, and the Divisional races at Mission Raceway usually drew "Full house" spectator numbers. Now, Mission Raceway did advertise the LODRS races on TV, and called it the "BC Nationals", and over the years, had several different special attractions, one year they had a 3 car Pro Stock shoot out, which included Warren Johnson and Ritchie Stevens, other times they had wheelstanders, jet cars, Pro Mods, Nitro Harleys, Nostalgia Funny Cars, etc. For me, the best ones were when they had several years of Hemi Shootouts, which usually had at least 8 cars, and included Bucky Hess and Ray Barton making the long long from the East Coast, as well as the "West Coast Hemi" group, and the "Race for the first 9 second Stocker pass", was a really big deal, for 2 years until Bobby DeArmond did it in 2001, at Mission. There were cars from pretty much every division in attendance . Considering that the closest NHRA National event for people from the Vancouver area, is Seattle, which is 3 1/2 - 4 hours (and a border crossing) away, if they want to see anything other than the weekly bracket racing program, this was as close as they could get. If a track holds a National event, as well as a points meet (or 2), the casual fan that may only go to one race a year, will likely gravitate to the "big show", and skip the LODRS race. I am assuming that that would explain why the Divisional races at Woodburn Oregon also had decent spectator turn outs, since again, Seattle`s National event is 3 hours away. I acknowledge that many of the younger generation are not into cars, and many don`t even bother to get a drivers license when they are old enough to do so (if ever), so I really doubt that those types would show up regardless of any special features.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

I don’t know how many are staying in the sport but some go on to College or a career to make enough money to get back in when they can afford it. Not only that how many find jobs in supporting drag racing by working for companies that support the sport. Who knows only time will tell.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

time has already told the truth but I see some here are delusional in that they refuse to accept the facts, others have posted wishful thinking and hope but fyi, hope is not a strategy for success. There are no spectators for what we do therefore if they are the savior and what will make divisionals great again, it's already too late and over! I suggest rather than racers talking nonsense about what racers, mostly old men think will put asses in the stands in 2024 and beyond, you go to a kids little league game, pee wee football game, high school games, scout meeting, the beach/lake and ask those kids and their parents why they are not in the stands at an NHRA Divisional that comes once a year to their area, watching class racers and be prepared to have your feelings hurt when they tell you they have zero interest but hey you all can dream.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

I think some parts of our great country will get more spectators than other parts.
It could be a various of reasons:

1. Day & Month of the year for said Divisional.
2. Other events going on the same date.
3. Maybe some people lost interest in the sport.
4. Some people might find it too boring to watch.
5. People can’t find it easy to understand handicap racing.

I believe on a positive note, if you compare the price of admission for Major League Sports compared to a day at the races, you’ll get more for your money at the Drags.
Baseball & Football games are on a average of only 3 hours long versus Drag racing
is 9:00am to 5-6-7 pm.
Just my opinion.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Guys, all of these ideas of packing the stands with spectators at divisional events all across the country are completely futile. Bader's and Bandimere's are the exception, not the standard.

Until NHRA begins looking at the racers, racers family and racers support crew, as the customer at the divisional level, we will continue to have the status quo. The only real talk here would be about event purse and the event experience on a competitor level.

The reality of the matter is, for the most part, NHRA has no problem selling a perfectly acceptable and manageable amount of entries at Divisional events in the current format. Until that changes, don't expect real change.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

dead on with a zero!

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Have to agree with that last statement. A weekend pass for a NHRA National event, is a bargain compared with something like a NHL hockey game, or even a 2 hour rock concert, and I am pretty sure that you won`t be able to bring in your own food or drinks to a Taylor Swift concert or NHL, NBA, MLB, or NFL game. OR be allowed to wander around players area or backstage.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Why is this so hard to understand?

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

because they are in denial, refusing to believe the truth and the facts.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Bring back Modified eliminator. Nothing better than watching Jim Oddy with his BB/A running down Cotton Perry's buzzing Nova. Seems every vehicle bounced or swayed its way down the 1/4 mile. Super comp bores everyone.
Like another thread. NHRA needs to put some newer vehicles in the books and quit waiting to be asked. My 34 yrs old daughter isn't into a 1969 vehicle.

Paul

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

It's about demographics, marketing and local culture.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Need to make it tighter. Lets try 1/8 mile. Were you can see the Finish line and the amount of Throttle stop time is reduced. Just My 2 cents

CHANGE MAKES CHANGE and something has to be done to save our Passion, Sport, FUTURE and Tracks.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

1/8th mile racing will not happen at NHRA Divisionals, the old men who represent the majority of the competitors in every class will not race 1/8th mile, hell they don’t want to race at night!

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

Maybe the track operators need to see what the people at great lakes dragway are doing. I raced there last summer for a drag and drive. So basically like a test session on a Wednesday. The place was packed standing room only. Also had good crowds at Byron and Cordova. All run during the week when people should have been at work.

With the rolling car show that is NHRA stock ad supper stock there is no reason they can't pull in some people.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

We have one 1/8th mile divisional race here in D2 at Galot. That race is well attended with all of the same players as our 1/4th mile events. The track and facility is very nice if you have not been there. I cant wait to go there again this year. The last 3 or 4 years it has fallen on my wifes birthday weekend. This year they changed the date.
I am one of those old men and my bedtime is pretty early. I prefer to race during the daylight hours. My night vision is not as good as it used to be.

Re: Make Divisionals Great Again
 

I can tell you that they don't race after dark at some Divisionals because when the "dew" comes in, the fast cars can't get down the track.