Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

It's just the NHRA version of D.E.I. and since the one man wrecking ball is loose again in D1 there's no since in me trying to save my combo.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

I wonder what their version of "Full Tech" is? Fuel and weight?

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

Indy is the “best data” they can collect. They’re right, when we run with impunity. The data they’ll get this year will be marginally better, at best, than any other national event.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

The biggest problem with ahfs is the way the HP is given
Whose idea was it to take a percentage of the fastest run on the combo?
Thats the azz arch here it should go back to the class average
To give hp because HP because. 1. Car goes 125 under is wrong
Them stupid fast runs are not an average run usually the weather perfect with a tail wind

Go back to class averages and not the % of the fastest run
Bring mineshaft rule back

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

The real issue is how unrealistic the AHFS criteria are. In 2023, 91 stockers qualified 1.00+ under at Indy, and if they can run 1.00 under at Indy, they would almost certainly average more than 0.85 under racing a full season without slowing their car down.

Do all 91 deserve horsepower?

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

Bingo we have a winner. Index issue?

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

I think the biggest problem with NHRA saying the data is good at Indy is that they don?t remember what ?full tech? used to be at Indy.

They don?t put eyes on any cars before the race like they used to.
Also, Indy has had a long tradition of robust and full teardown schedules, so the saying that going. Fast at Indy means you are fast had merit.

Point 3 of their clarification is pretty hollow if they do not put tech back in at the race. Probably the biggest heartburn is for racers that won?t go to Indy but may get hp as a result of runs made there. At least if tech and teardown was more like it was, it would legitimize any ahfs hits.

I don?t know why any -1.30 hit wouldn?t get a look before applying hp to all, but that has been happening.



I will say that NHRA gets plenty of complaints from people that say ahfs needs to work better so they are getting yelled at in both ears.

Heck some moron even sent threatening letters about a race team because they have dominated at Indy in terms of class and qualifying in recent years.

I would rather they clarified in the beginning of the year, but they didn?t say they would allow a hall pass every year.

As far as indexes go, I agree there are some really soft ones. Whenever anyone mentions dropping the index it is met with a lot of resistance from folks that will be impacted.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

They either need horsepower or the indexes need to be lowered. If we are being honest probably both.
In the current form there is no good way to fix the problem without hurting others.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

Are there really that many soft indexes or are there a few soft factored cars within a given index? I am trying to wrap my head around how simply lowering indexes accomplishes much because it is proportional.

All cars within that index now run under a lower one. Just like what happened a few years ago. What am I missing?

Say you lower it another .30 All you end up doing is lowering the index and the few cars that are within that .30 can't compete, but it does nothing towards addressing soft combo. Of course, I could be missing something so I am listening.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

It?s been roughly 15 years since the last index and AHFS adjustment rule changes better accepted parts ,R&D have made anyone working on their stuff faster making easier to run .85 under and that?s all you have to avg to get HP along with 2 sec under triggers . If we leave the indexes or the .85 avg numbers the same we will keep putting weight in our cars . I?ll use the 255 that got instant HP on Monday as an example that combo has been race for 56 years did it really need that much power obviously he spent good money bought the best he could buy and was in great conditions and now everyone that has that combo that chose not to buy the best stuff and I totally understand that got their combo pretty much destroyed in one run. We also just watched a heads up final in stock at a track that?s not known for being fast if that race happens at Gainesville they are both probably getting Hp on Monday and not just 5 enough to move a class. At some point either the AHFS numbers need adjusted or adjust the indexes and leave the AHFS numbers the same . Like Andrew said in his post 91 stockers were a sec under at Indy not Gainesville . The last adjustment we took a .30 hit and the trigger went from 1.15 to 1.0 I do not recall what the avg was . This gave everyone a little cushion the guy on a budget wasn?t get hp from someone that?s buying the latest greatest stuff we are there again.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

As I remember about a year ago they polled the racers and it was overwhelming voted to keep the indexes the same and make the corrections with the AHFS. Lowering the index does nothing to improve parity in the classes. Only hurts the guys at the bottom of the sheet. Car counts are not what they used to be. Lowering the indexes will not bring more cars to the track. Fast guys have the choice to run all out or hold back. If you are racing a combo that can run way under including under the trigger then you could get a hit at any time. Realistically there was very few HP hits at the end of the season last year.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

I understand what you are saying, but the index change doesn't impact a single combo. It affects all combos in that class. What was the instant HP before the .30 reduction in the index? -1.50? Then they dropped it to -1.20 after the .30 reduction.

Index changes only affects qualifying and positions on the ladder if you do not do it universally. Then it is only semantics if you do it universally. I have yet to understand how an index change would target a soft combo without affecting more fairly factored combos.

Then you have a scenario in Super Stock where there are 5 classes with a 11.00 index. SS/K, SS/JA, SS/TD, FSS/M, & SS/PHA (whatever that is). One or more of the cars in those particular classes my have a super soft index, but none of them would be a heads up situation if they line up against another class even though it shares the same index.

Soft or not indexes only affect qualifying at a fairly rare event that has more than 128 cars which Indy is one and sometimes Bowling Green. I know there are a few more that pop up and they are pretty cool to see. But qualifying high on the sheet or even number 1 doesn't seem to be a big factor in winning overall.

All that being said I am not opposed to lowering the indexes, but I don't see the point if the triggers are lowered along with it.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

I think the soft indexes are not across the board which makes it difficult to fix. I agree hacking them all just pulls cars away from the trigger potentially but won?t change the spread. In fact the cars that can go the fastest benefit the most.

I don?t see nhra doing that anyway. Their lawyers don?t want to have to deal with any decisions at all.

If nhra were to make rule changes for that rewarded performance, ahfs would work a lot better than it does now.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

I guess what I?m trying to say is with the rule changes and more excepted replacement heads it has become easier for a combination that isn?t soft to meet the requirements to receive hp . They don?t have to lower the indexes I?m just saying they need to make adjustments so it?s not so easy to get hp. The . 65 and lower runs not counting is one the guys on a budget that choose not to get the latest stuff don?t count and the higher % of hp is a little out of control I can?t imagine having a car with aftermarket head getting 15 hp and having to add 150 lbs to it because if your already running the higher class the aftermarket heads won?t move the natural class. Go back and look at the HP adjustments that were done in January most of them are older combos that have been given aftermarket head and carburetors . Idk it just seems pointless to me to keep spending money in a performances based class to keep adding weight. The bar should always move if your sitting still you’re backing up.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

How about having two different classes for the same combo in Stock Eliminator.
Example would be 1 G/SA class has an index of 12.00 the other lower. Say 11.00 (for easy math). The 11.00 index car carry a unique letter designation.
All the same current rules applied to both cars.
If both cars have a heads up, its a dial race.
If a 11.0 index G/SA car races another same index car , its no dial , same for two 12.00 index cars.
Ladders are based on runs under you class index.
Call the class what ever you want, make the lower index 1. Under, .8 under. .5 under.
But this way the really fast guys can keep it matted and race each other without getting Horse Powered on Monday.
The guys that chose not to run with the lower index CAN and race a fast index same combo in a non heads up round.
Problem Solved ( well almost lol)
AHFS will never accomplish what NHRA intend it to .

Steve Teeter Stk/SS 620/7888

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

The aftermarket heads have their own HP factor so it doesn't affect the racers using factory heads (I think you use the factory heads). You are right that a HP hit to the aftermarket heads do not affect the natural class because it is tied to the factory heads.

Running the extra weight comes with the territory when HP is added and the aftermarket head combos can drop down a class from the natural if extra weight is somehow an issue for their car.

I am a numbers and money guy. I will be one of the first to recognize that few of us are doing it for the money (IHRA is trying to shake this up). It is the thrills, sense of accomplishment, and connections that I make. Those three things rank way above the money for me otherwise I wouldn't do this at all.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

The problem is there is no weather conditions considered in getting automatic hp any more with the mineshaft rule gone . For example if the density altitude is below sea level there should be a .15 hundreds correction use air density online or some other site as a guide. Also if the track elevation is below 700 ft there should be another correction of .05 . That would stop some engine combos from getting riuned permanently when racers go to say Florida or Georgia in the winter. Examples 255 /350 , 300 / 350 , 396 iron head . Non of these were soft combos they have had good racers and engine builders working on them for 50 years. None of these cars would have hit the trgger in normal conditions . Just my 2 cents.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

What happens if NHRA throws their hands in the air and says no more class racing. So you have a fast combo that isn't worth anything to a bracket racer. I wouldn't put it past NHRA, no more dealing with tear downs and giving class trophies.
Don't get me wrong, I love Stock and Super Stock and want to make it thrive. I for one will support any decision that NHRA comes up with for any race.
We had people bitching about our local track and now we don't have one, who won?
Just my 2 cents.
Casey Miles
248H Stock

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

The wording of NHRA's post makes me think this is not intended to be a one-time deal.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

"Every car gets weighed, fuel-checked, and processed by NHRA officials."
So it says on the latest updates on the NHRA's own NHRA racer sight.

Of course, except at the Orlando divisional, where a certain combination went 1.30 under the index, FAILED FUEL CHECK, which NHRA's own rules state are part of the tech inspection process, then that particular run gets thrown out for failing said fuel check, no one knows what kind of fuel was used for that run, but they still hit the combination with horsepower. THEY ARE IN VIOLATION OF THEIR OWN RULES!

And then when the vice president of competition hears about a 30 year seasoned tech person questioning the reason for this combination getting hit, without the vehicle in question passing fuel check, he tells the area division director, "YOU EITHER FIRE HIM, OR YOU'RE FIRED!"

And when that vice president of competition is asked to review the horsepower increase for this combination, his answer basically says,

"It's not up for discussion, that's final, we will NOT be discussing this matter any further."

So it's obvious that the NHRA is a dictatorship, with no chance for the members to have their voices or concerns addressed by the NHRA. And the members have no say, or no chance at voting people like this out of OUR organization.

LONG LIVE THE IHRA!

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

Our SCRA rep told me that very few racers in StK and SS even voted on the index change.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

At some point indexes will have to change or combos will have to move classes...
There is only so much weight that can be added...
(Per RULES and/or LOGIC)... If that matters....

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

I don?t think they published the exact amount of racers that voted but did tell us the the majority voted to keep the index?s as they were.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

Looking at the Indy Stock/Super Stock entry list currently it is 153 (3 over Quota Stk/150 Quota in S.S.), and looks to be a bad fast and quite competitive field vying for those 128 Qualifying spots to race field after Class, so it did not scare away many (the AHFS back on at Indy again), that want to race in the NHRA 2025 Indy Big Go Show!

There are a few in some classes that were fastest of the fast missing that raced last year when it was off, nobody but them knows if they even had plans to attend this year or not. Even AHFS back on the over quota shows the interest in class racing is healthy and its predicted by many demise is a fallacy often repeated. The field may be graying but isn't going away anytime soon. Go get those Wally's boys and girls (or shall I say in most cases Ladies and Gents!)

Those trophies will not say AHFS on or off. They will just say 2025 Indy Class Champion, and Event Winner! And those memories last a lifetime.

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

We need personal hp factoring in Stock and Super Stock! They do it in Comp, why can?t it be done in Stock and Super Stock? We have Nitro Joes stats and now Draginsights.com to provide all the data needed!

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

Maybe not a solution, for that is why Comp nearly died. It probably would have, had Roger Brogdon not been involved.

Ernie

Re: AHFS at Indy?
 

What we NEED is good old-fashioned Tech Inspections instead of the On-Your-Honor stuff that we have now!
Trust me. ;-)