Re: Econo Modified
 

Michael,
Has anyone done some real world testing of this on some drag cars?
I'm curious.

If I understand what your stating, in theory, we should be able to pick 20 cars, equip each with a single 4 barrel carb, install the 1" carb plate and the 2" header collector and have a group of cars that should E.T. with in approximately 0.10 of one another.

Re: Econo Modified
 

I'm curious too. Did they all weigh the same, as in lbs. per cubic inch?

Re: Econo Modified
 

No, a 461X head won't run with a 15 degree head but you're manipulating the facts. The Nascar guys don't run the same exact heads on a restrictor plate motor or the same heads, cam, pistons or intake. And they're not restricting the exhaust either.

Re: Econo Modified
 

We actually had a major track owner and a DD interested in this and we had cars lined up to test but everybody got too busy and it never got done. BUT it'll be a whole bunch easier to get "20 cars, equip each with a single 4 barrel carb, install the 1" carb plate and the 2" header collector" and actually test them then it will be to get 20 cars, equip each with the same manufacturers spec head, install a trick clutch and 4 or 5 speed and get them all to weigh in on a 10 lb. per cube weight break!

Re: Econo Modified
 

Billy very good point. Probably will take a few test and tune runs for jetting etc . Only difference is the guys will still have the 20K + motors when all is said and done but it would allow a test of the theory.

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To address the wheelstands stick v/s auto.......who cares? The wheelstands are for the attention whores anyway.
The stick cars are more entertaining to watch because of the violent nature or "presentation" that the automatic cars just dont have.
Lets face it , most stock and super stock cars are boring to watch unless you're a bonfide old school car guy like me.
The example in the video makes it clear........it's the theatrics associated with the cars that draw fans.......this new / old resurrection of an old idea has to keep that in mind.............it must be exciting for fans to watch. Real cars.....not chassis cars , running quick....if you're going to make it a 3000lb minimum then change the weight to 8.5 so a 350 wont have to carry so much weight........no ones going to build a small engine these days anyway.
The NHRA is clueless.
With regard to the comment about some sportsman racers "making a living" out of this , frankly , I don't see how...............and if so , what KIND of a living.........I can't believe anyone would even WANT to.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Dick, by restricting the intake AND the exhaust you take away the need for that 20K + motor. It may even become a hinderance as your big cam and heads are going to cause reversion issues at some point, something that you don't need with a restricted intake. I believe that cylinder pressure, gearing and an overall ability to tune the combo will be the major factor. I also believe that you would wind up with two totally different schools of thought in the long run, big, torque monster dump truck motors and smaller well tuned and higher winding modified type motors.

Re: Econo Modified
 

I understand Billy but the test cars would not prove too much towards the theory as you said they would still have the Cams, the heads, the parts.... We all are aware the small carb and exhaust would limit the performance so in some ways the testing would be of limited information.
As for monster truck motor remember the lb per cubic inch idea. No more 9 passenger wagons on steroids.
I am with Randy and many others it may never happen that an organization will decide to limit these specs BUT... just heard power boat racing has now developed a sealed or spec motor class. It has worked till now the guys are spending the money on trick hull for advantages.
Maybe if IHRA made any noise about it NHRA would do it to out do them.

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The first thing that came to mind with restrictor plates was nascar,I know they were introduced to slow down cars on super speedways,I think the theory was slap the plates on there and that would be it,I don't think they knew what was going to happen,they devoloped engines around the plates,spent lots and lots of dollars,on R&D,it seemed like simple fix but turned into nightmare.
I don't know if something like that would happen with Billy's ideal,but I think a engine could be built that would take advantage of restrictors on intake and exhaust,you put them on your ordinary engine it's going to make bigger difference,could you build engine to work with restrictors that would be advantage?maybe
I had friend worked nascar for years now retired,once told me of lasered intakes used on restrictor plate engines,they had thousands of tiny holes put in by laser so they could pull air through them,said they were mainly to qualify with because dirt,rubber,etc. would stop the holes after so many laps
I think the easiest and least expensive way to do this would be with the brodix spec heads,it would only allow 3 engines to be ran as evenly matched as possible
I believe if you allow deck height from 9.0-9.600 that would keep rotate assm. close in weight and that covers sbc,351w and sbm would allow guy to start w/stock block if they wanted that option.

The restrictors would allow many combo's which would be good,but could the parity be kept equal?

The main thing in my opinion that kills most heads up racing that fails is,a few run off from everyone else then you are left w/2-3 cars and it's over.
Keep cost down,cars evenly matched,I believe it could work.
MikeTaylor 3601

Re: Econo Modified
 

Check into the APBA and let me know what you think then. They're hurting so badly for participants that they, on occasion, have to cancel races.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Joe, 8.5 lbs. are good with me. Mike Taylor, a man after my own heart. In my opinion, anytime you allow 20 different style cylinder heads, and think for a second, one won't have an advantage over the other, because you put a cute little plate under it, you're either dreaming, or you think you have that magic head already. Guys, the concept is cute, but there WILL be an advantage somewhere, and the class, not only won't take off, but will die in it's infancy. Now then, if you have them all run the spec head, and a spacer, and exhaust restrictor, then that's a different story. I personally believe a spec collector, and spec normal 4 hole spacer will achieve what you want, and make the cars a little more interesting. Come on guys, at 8.5 lbs. you're only talking about low nines. Slow em dowm 2 more seconds, and wow. Where's the excitement.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Dick, no one ever went and watched the boat races anyway. Drag racing, at least once had an audience. SPEC HEAD IS THE ANSWER!! WE'VE NEVER HAD THE CHANCE BEFORE TO RUN ALL BIG THREE WITH THE SAME POTENTIAL.

Re: Econo Modified
 

The "Association" or "Sanctioning Body" would/should be responsible for handing out the restrictor plates. They would need to have them made and numbered.
You're worried about Racers developing motors around a plate but they're going to do the same with their X deck height block, Y cubic inch to weight and Z spec head anyway and a restrictor plate and collector added to an existing motor is a bunch easier to swallow.
The end result will always be that 2-3 Racers will dominate because they will take the time and spend the money.
You need participants to get this thing started. Period. You need to make participation as simple and painless as you possibly can. Period.

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If you allow any cylinder head, I ain't interested. But, I wish you guys all the luck, and I hope it works for you. Thanks for listening, and "GET er done!"

Re: Econo Modified
 

Where the hell are you goin'? You're the one who started this debacle :confused::D

Re: Econo Modified
 

Billy,
Look at the rule # 33 on the APBA Super Stock class. It is about the Tech.
Interesting concept.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Joe, I didn't start this debacle, I started a discussion. I think there's more interest in a restrictor plate, restricted exhaust deal with any head. I just want to be man enough to step aside. What they're talking about now is just taking any, and all, existing cars, and heads, and handing them a restrictor plate. It just doesn't interest me, is all. It doesn't mean it won't work, it's just not my thing. Before long, anyone who wants to stay competitive, will have to purchase the head, and do the work to it, that makes it more powerful in a restricted air flow class. You're back to square one. I just find it hard to believe that 3 heads designed to run with each other, and cost of bare heads are as follows, Ford, $998 a pair, Mopar, $1,049 a pair, Chevy, $889 a pair. Or at least they were. That will be the cost limitations in itself. I'm sure some of you know what Carl at CFE charges for a ready to run top end. Why does it work so well in ASCS racing?

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You know, the funny thing is we're all discussing, and arguing about something that will never happen. I think we've missed the era of interesting spectators, or racers in the concept.

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All anyone has done is provided opinions and options. It's just like the Class Nationals. We've talked about it ever since Alex's race, so we will have gone over a decade without a wildly popular event. Eventually, someone has to just DO it. If you have 10, 20, 30 guys that want to build spec head stick cars and go race them, you don't need NHRA's blessing. Just go do it.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Good point,Michael
Junior Dragster started with who, the Napp brothers at Englishtown, right?
If it's appealing to the masses, it'll spread..Go for it!

Re: Econo Modified
 

Like I said before 3, 4 or 1 car at the Class nationals which could run SS/CS index in eliminator would start more questions and interest than all the discussions we have had here.
We'll see what happens..
Randy, Could we post cash to encourage one of the cars that ran at your place to show up? Pay them gas money or something and see one in person, If several ran there maybe they would show up together..Get your mailing list out and lets contact some of them.

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Dick, if we still own the cobalt, I'd make sure it was somewhere, but, and this is a big but. THEY WILL NEVER, EVER, NEVER, let it in SS\CS. ASK ANYONE ON THIS BOARD! Go to 11,000 rpm cobalt, or 12,000 rpm nova at youtube, and watch some of it now.

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If you remember the "TOP STOCK" deal at Norwalk in IHRA I had a small window to work in. I knew Bill Bader from working as a Tech Offical for IHRA for a long time and Bill was/is a good guy. He was reachable to the little guys and knew a good idea when he saw it. To bad it was "Bastardized" by one of the sponsors who had their name on the program when it came about. At the first race myself and Mike Keener of Checkmate fame put up the prize money out of our own pockets. I believe is was around $500 each along with a few small sponsors we had managed to round up and the hope that if enough cars showed up to race it would become an eliminator. It was well recieved and became an eliminator but as in most cases a good idea isnt always the main requirement. GM Performance and one of their engineers ended up shoving the crate motored combos up our....Im mean down our throats and the rest is history. It takes MONEY to keep an eliminator up and running no matter how popular it might become. GM had the $$$$$$, clout, and the powers that be bended to the almighty dollar. Just something to think about with any new endevor.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Billy,
I know spec head would have engine built around heads also,what I meant on restrictor plate as example you had X amount of cars running that had just added restrictors,and someone shows up with engine built specifically for restrictors,I'm not sure it would work out.
In my opinion spec head,750/850 carb,cast alum.intake,if supposed to be unmodified that could be bad,if ever seen the unmodified intakes Wilson does for some of the nascar series,they look untouched,but have alot of work done,cut in sections,plenum sizes changed,etc.never heard how many $.
What do associations that run spec head do on intake manifolds?

If 8.5 lbs per ci was the weight around 380'' is biggest I would consider myself,with 2800 min. weight 329.4 would be smallest could be. so that limits how many different sizes you would want to run.

My theory on deck height is from 9.0-9.6 you cover sbc,351W,sbm, from factory351w has alot bigger main,but aftermarket blocks mostly have cleveland main,which puts all three brands close together on main size,and rotate assm. of all three could be built close together in rotating weight without a guy having to spend a bunch of money.

I want to be sure no one takes my post wrong,I'm not saying my ideals are right and yours are wrong,I think is all interesting and am enjoying the conversations.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Econo Modified
 

RPM limiters?

Re: Econo Modified
 

Randy, I do not understand. No I dont recommend racing CLASS with the test car. I recommend running eliminator with it using the SS/CS index then it is SEEN as a combo. People notice the idea more in the open. That kind of stuff.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Mike, no matter what you do regarding rules, a handfull of racers will exploit the rules and dominate. In order to get any kind of series off the ground it has to have participation. The only way to get a significant number of participants, IMHO, is to make participating easy, convenient and inexpensive. Once you get them to try it, they can make their own decision as to whether they want to better their combination and continue or not. The trick is to get them to try it and the more that initially try it, the better chance the series has of surviving. After the series gets underway and gets (hopefully)a following then you can get feedback from those participants in regards to how or if the rules should be changed. But only active participants should have any say in any changes(see X-Techman post).
From my experiences, racers eventually get bored and want to try something different be it a local Bracket racer trying some .90 racing or an NHRA Stock or SS racer trying Nostalgia or a circuit. You have to make it quick and easy to set the hook. There are too few racers with the time, money and knowledge to do a purpose-built car on a whim.

Re: Econo Modified
 

X-Tech is just letting us know some of the hang-ups we would encounter, and I'm sure we would. Top stock was a great idea, that got hijacked. To Billy, I don't know how a couple of racers would dominate, if a racers board made ALL the calls, along with Brodix for help. There is just so much HP in a short block. Dick, I now see what you mean, but NHRA would NOT let us run in SS. To Mike, that's why we allowed ANY internal mods to the intake manifold. THAT'S where they, the innovators can play. WAY LESS EXPENSIVE THEN THE HEADS. Control the heads, you control the performance. You could spend a million dollars on the intake, and maybe gain a slight advantage, but a guy with a good brain, could take a well designed intake, have a competent guy port it, pick the right cam, and carb, and compete. It still has to go down into a limited head. I think Mike and I think a lot alike, but we may be wrong. Did anyone go to youtube and watch the black nova against us, or the white nova against us? That race in the dark was Big Shoot-out night, and we won by .0002. We spotted him a tenth, he was at 11.5 lbs, we were at 11. LOOK at the stands, but remember, the stands were only on the side they are filming from.

Re: Econo Modified
 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gw5VG6n0J4"]High Revving Cobalt vs Nova Heads Up Drag Race - YouTube[/ame]
I assume this is you?
I also notice by the comments , there's the confirmation we live in a world chock full of dumb asses.
BTW , personally , as cool as the engines sound , the performance ( E.T. ) I would want , just isn't there in the little combos.
Also , the camera guy(?) really needs training.:rolleyes:

Re: Econo Modified
 

Ha, the camera guy. Ya, he ain't no professional. But, you get the drift. And Joe, you're right. Unless they had like 3 different lbs. per cube classes, I think the bigger motors would be better, And I figured you guys would read the posts, and you don't know me from Adam, but the ones posting NEVER even ran the class. They were patsy's for the guys who wanted to slam us. I actually sent my heads over to the competitors so they could look at them, and it's after all that the accusations started bad. I closed it because we had one really nutty family that I thought might go postal. Plus, it wasn't worth the vitriol to keep it open. I doubt we'd have that problem nationally. After all, this is redneck country.

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Randy, Lets face it. One of the reasons NHRA is successful is that it "plays" the racers like a finely tuned violin. Just look at the responses. Not fast enough, wrong ways to limit performance, Wrong parts used, etc etc. NHRA plays on the fact that no group of racers really hang together to support one simple idea. We all want something special that turns "us" on.
Despite the reason for the thread being a CHEAP class to build, a way to get guys a way back into racing without the 30,000$ motor. Many faults can be pointed out from the computer chairs.
The only way respect for this kind of project will occur is keep pointing out the goals.
CHEAPER CLASS, FUN CLASS, HEADS UP CLASS, Not exotic class.

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Dick, I agree. You think they would look at how the crowd follows the circle track boys, and try to tap into that. I've built some very competitive circle track engines, from $4,000 to $14,000 dollars, and got a lot of my ideas from them, and their rules.

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The conversion cars are cool for the purpose , but I'm a die hard classic muscle car guy ( read that must have chrome bumpers ).
That power train in the Cobalt would be a great combo for a classic Chevy 2 , Camaro or Vette.

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Joe, I have a 67 nova the same guy who built the cobalt, and the black nova in the video built that I would run. We have the cobalt for sale. I just like older cars.

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That was a 289 in the cobalt, and a 276 in the nova.

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The amount of people who occupy the stands at a given sporting event is dependent on local culture and available entertainment choices.

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Definately

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Ok, then NHRA and IHRA must have a lot of competition. Because you can't ask 100 people on the street what SS racing is about, and get one answer from someone who knows what they're talking about. The same can't be said for Nascar, or Sprint cars. More people know more about Sammy Swindell then Dan Fletcher.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Randy , who is this "dusternash" raving about the 12,000 RPM Nova?

In a YouTube video a comment was made by this person:
dusternash

1 year ago

in reply to ted evans

"60 ft times low 1.20's. Car is 1/8 mile so this is a full pass 5.90 117 mph. Launch at 10,000 and shift 10,200. Car weighs 3150 so hp est between 7 and 800"

A 10.5LB car w a 289 w driver on board needs to weigh roughly 3030......however "duster nash " claims the cars weighs 3150......first of all , why carry the additional weight , if in fact he's even accurate........and secondly , its doubtful that little engine is making more than 675 , as opposed to the "between 7 and 8 hundred" he claims. Given he's probably using a shallow valve angle head 15/18deg because thats what it would take?:rolleyes:

Re: Econo Modified
 

Ok Joe. It's a long story, but I'll do my best to explain. Dusternash is the mouth piece of the competition. He NEVER EVER ran against us. He ran the heads-up trophy class with an 8 second car. I ain't slamming his car, just his motives. They just told him what to post, and he posted it. At Bethany, with the runs he is talking about, the spec motor they ran, ran 6.44 best, at 104 mph. at 11.5 lbs. per cube. He carried a 150 lb. penalty for running a clutchless, and dry sump against our clutch assisted, and wet sump. I doubt the motor had 550 HP. We ran at 11 lbs. per cube, and ran 6.29 at 109.67 best, and we actually dynoed that engine, and had 592 HP. Go figure. Then some of my adversaries decided to talk Eddyville into running "Their" rules of any head, any trans, any oil system, with computers, and all the bells and whistles, and no wt breaks, and dared us to compete under "their" rules. We abliged, with a dart\buick, and proceeded to kick their butts again. The fastest I seen them go at Eddyville, was 6.09 at 109 at 10.5 lbs. per cube with a 15 degree. We went 5.85, 120 mph at 10.5 lbs. per cube. We never were beat by them and they ran the scales, and all legality's. And we only had a shade over 700 HP. If they ever ran a 5 I never seen it, and would doubt the car would weigh right, but who knows. And that, my friend, is the caliber of racers I had to deal with. Some were great, such as Rick Parrot, Steve Bridger, etc, but a few can ruin it for many. In fact after running a couple of times at Eddyville, Steve Thompson, our driver, posted on facebook, "Different track, different tech guys, different rules, Same damn results." Go figure.