Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

4 to 7% that have the ability to run 1.499 under the index. The number is less in super stock because the ability per class is less due to a lot of combos being closer the correct hp. Exception is the modified classes which only lose index and have more resources in the engine department

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Ron I am in favor of the current system

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Ed I am not going to blame the situation on The Sportsman Council. We do not know what has been brought to there attention. Now we know one of the issues. My suggestion would be for all people who are not in favor two tents in index for 1.499 under contact there Sportsman Council Rep and voice an opinion. The Rep is not going to contact anyone we must be proactive.

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What situation do we have? It's two tenths, Geez! Do you people really think it flippin matters? My Lord, give us "RACERS" a break already. Why is it, that six months ago, everyone thought the SRAC was gospel? Now that something slipped by the "goalie" Everyone is up in arms. It's frickin TWO TENTHS, not five, which is what I would have wanted. Go race and try and figure out how to pay for $5 per gallon diesel.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Maybe I`m not very bright, but I really don`t see how lowering the indexs 2 tenths, 5 tenths etc would really accomplish anything , other than hurting the guys at the lower end of the food chain, and quite likely discouraging new blood from getting into Stock or S/S. By lowering the indexs, you are not really changing the qualifying positons, only the ET numbers at the end. If NHRA did lower the indexs, they would also likely lower the AHFS number as well, so what would the benefit be? Some of you guys are going on about these classes being performance based, yet many of you same people are also complaining about having to hit the brakes, or lift early to save your combination, that doesn`t sound very performance based to me. If you can run 1.40 under maybe, just maybe you may need a HP hit. My own Stocker has never been close to 1 second under (.830 under best for far), but I run it flat out every race, I`m not "holding" a few tenths in the bank, kinda seems that guys like me who run our cars hard all the time are more "performance based" than the sandbaggers! Personally, if NHRA did drop the indexs 2 /10s, iit wouldn`t really hurt me, but on the other hand, I can`t see it helping me either. I do believe that some of this sour grapes by the older racers is due to the fact that some of the more sucessful race winners in recent years have been newer guys that have come into Stock and S/S after years of bracket racing, and many of thier cars don`t run the quick ET`s, but with shrewd driving skills, they win a lot of races. To many of them, a consistant car that goes rounds and doesn`t break stuff makes more sense than shooting for a top ten qualifying position. Also, many of these "damn bracket racers" seem to be more concerned about winning a $10,000 + National event than picking up a few hundred (maybe) for winning class. Personally, I can see both sides of the coin, I have been a lowly bracket racer since the mid 70`s, & I have only been running my own fairly low buck Stocker for the past 5 years, even though I have been involved with various friends class cars for many years. As anybody can tell by taking a look in the pits at a NHRA Nat`l or divisional race, the amount of disposable income (or willingness to use the credit cards!) varies greatly amongst racers, some guys have 1/2 million dollar tow rigs, other use a 30 year old pickup and an old open trailer. Obviously a racer who can afford a 40 foot Monaco coach and a multi car stacker trailer is likely to also have the funds to purchase the newest and greatest pro built cars and powertrains, but I think that trying to push out the little guy will only reduce car counts, and I think NHRA could take that as a sign of dwindling interest in class racing, and does anybody really think that would be desirable?

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This thread has turned into the biggest bunch of crap that I've ever read in my life! The bottom line here is that until NHRA is willing to let the Tech Inspectors they have left that know what they're doing enforce the rules and get rid of the bogus stuff that is now running out there it doesn't matter where the indexes are, how bogus the factor is on the "other guys" combo is or how hard you work at your combo or at spending Daddys money! It seems to me that the people bitching the most aren't the guys that are at the track every weekend flogging their stuff. It sure isn't the guys that were smart enough to build the "soft" combos as they've got nothing to bitch about. It isn't the "Professional Sportsman" racers, they're too busy just getting they're job done. Seems to me that the people bitching the most are the ones that are willing to spend the most money to get the best bogus parts that they can get an Engine Builder to build them(I don't blame the Engine Builder, they've gotta eat too) and still can't run with the smart guys and the workers. The indexes are only numbers that determine the price of entry into this "Boys Club". The AHFS triggers are only numbers that determine who's pushing the rules beyond the boundarys of good taste (bit a hole in my tongue typing that). I really take offense to the "idiots" on this thread telling racers that aren't willing or able to spend themselves into debt that maybe they should find a new place to race. From my experience, these "idiots" throw a bunch of money around for a few years then get bored and leave the sport having left it a more difficult place to compete in! I've met a bunch of GREAT people in this sport and a few A**HOLES but it seems to me that right now the A**HOLES are trying to take over the sport, MY sport.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Great summary of the 10 pages of this post... X2

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Billy,
Got your broad brush out today? Not all of the fast racers are doing the things you are "bitching" about. nhra has accepted a ton of changes and you can ignore that if you want but that is what we are dealing with here. Lowering the indexes .20 still doesn't offset the tons of HP increases that have been LEGALLY gained over the last ten years or so.

Tony,
I have no problem with you or any one else who wants to race a slow car. That's your business, but both of us know that you have the means to go faster if you want to. You come out here all the time and bang away on the racers who want to go fast; is that fair?

You guys have to remember that the ahfs is a double edge sword. You seem to be interested only in the penalty edge of the sword. Look at the other edge. The one that allows for HP decreases if you are running a bad combination.

A high dollar motor can certainly make a car go faster but there is a ton of performance to be found in these cars by just plain working your *** off on them like many of the faster racers do. You put a high dollar motor in some of these slow cars and they still won't run -.600 under the index because the racer isn't working on the rest of the car.

I really think you guys have to get with the competitive spirit of the sport and stop complaining because you want other racers brought down to your level of performance through the ahfs. Even nhra isn't going to by that old story.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Bruce, It seems to me that you're the one "painting with a broad brush". What does the AHFS have to do with the where the indexes are set? Like I've said in my previous post, one sets the entry level and the other sets the upper limit. What NHRA "accepts"(I'm glad you didn't say approved) only has to do with the upper limit. I also don't see what this has to do with what Tony or me or anybody else has "the means" to do! I've got enough equity built up in all of this farmland to build and bury any combo that I want to! I choose to build the cars that I do for the challenge that they give me not because they can go 1.50 under! It seems to me that a few certain people are trying to change this from a "Boys Club" into an "Exclusive Gentlemens Club". Don't group all of the fast racers together! I said the ones that work and the ones that"buy" their horsepower. As far as "working your *** off", I'll put MY work ethic up against yours or anybody elses any day of the week.

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Billy - Pops needs to take you junkyardin'. ;)

Outstanding observation... with the caveat that if you're going to allow new parts and other things, then factor the HP accordingly.

Again, if they would just use their years of data they have compiled and refactor *everybody* once now, y'all could probably race wide open for a number of years.

$.02,

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Sean: The price of fuel is going to have more effect on racing than 2 tenths off the indexes.

Bruce: I do not care how fast anyone goes as long as they do not try to make policy that allows them to go faster by changing AHFS. Whats on the table in this thread is a trade of 2 tenths off the indexes for returning to 1.499 under for instant hp, which NHRA took away a few years back. I do not care if it were 2 seconds under, as long as there is not a trade.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Lowering the indexes is not the answer to the problem of sandbagging by the quicker cars. It will only delay the fast guys a short period until they are at the trigger again. Pretty sad this is not as obvious to many as it is too me. Also pretty obvious to me that politics is at work here big time. Reminds me of the time years ago that NHRA got tired of catching cheaters with regards to cylinder heads in S/S & basically let them do what they had been doing illegally for years.
And by far the worst thing. The people running real quick know that lowering the indexes is not the answer to their problem yet are trying to push everyone else into thinking so.

Allan

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Billy,
You don't see any broad strokes in your previous post about the "a**holes running MY sport"??? Read your post again.

Sure, with all that Pa. farmland to sell you could go fast, but you choose not to. That's your business and that is what I stated. But you don't have a leg to stand on when you come out here and hammer the A**holes for running YOUR sport when you know darn well that the club you complain about could not surive without them. Then of course you don't want to take on the bogus engine builders - you give them a pass, cuz they have to eat too. You sell all of your valuable Pa. farm land and then buy all of drag racing and I'll call you the KING.

The ahfs and the indexes are linked together in a system - without one there is no use for the other. I think you know that.

Enough of this blather.

Tony,
We have beaten this old horse enough. I don't see the trade you are mentioning but it really makes no difference. Good luck.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Index------11.70.........1.40 under = 10.30 New Index -----11.50......1.30 under = 10.20 it's FASTER !

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Great post Billy! I believe if a car can run 1.40 under and PASS TEARDOWN it needs hp. Lowering the index does nothing. If today your -1.00 under next week your -.80 under how did that change anything?
The bottom end specs really helped and when the new cyl. head rule comes out I believe it will level things. Just a matter of adjusting the hp factors on cars that PASS inspection.

Little birdie told me 3 cc under current SS spec will be the new STK spec. No valves will be pulled. NO MORE $5,000 valve jobs will be needed...... Can I get a Amen?

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Ya know, the reason that you don't see me posting very often is that, in my opinion, it seems that the Internet has the incredible power to turn learned, civilized human beings into "blithering morons" in no time at all so I will not be responding to this thread after this. I've said my piece for what it's worth. Bruce, I will respectfully "agree to disagree" with you but not on this subject. I'll see you at Atco and I'll buy you a beer! (If you can "lower yourself to my level")

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

All of you that have an interest here should contact your SRAC rep ASAP if you want to be heard. My e-mail is gph.hill@insightbb.com my cell phone is 502-426-7070.

Greg

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Sorry that's my home phone cell phone is 502-432-2546 either one is fine.

Greg

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Go get em Bruce! , they just d'ont understand the math and logic! It's sad!

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Billy,
I believe you were the first person to come barging into this thread calling folks names like A**holes and making low brow remarks about how people run and finance their racing programs. And of course you don't have a clue as to how most of these folks put together their "bogus" programs - to use your word. I will accept your offer to not so respectfully disagree. I don't drink any form of booze but I'll have a cold soda with ya at Atco.

Most racers really don't care about this issue. Just a handful of racers have come out to vent.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

not to hijack this thread, but I gotta say, Ed O., you are one handsome fella. Congrats again.

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Robert Ed must have bought all that cheating ****. Were did you hide that Matty duds box Ed? Or was it that wheel counter? Comon Ed fes up. We all know you know nobody could win without all that stuff. You probably went out and bought a set of those 8 thousand dollar all acided up heads with your winnings too. Alright Ed I am just busting your ***. Congrats Barry

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

If this has to done, why can't we just raise the triggers instead of lowering the indexes?

Instead of the triggers being at 1.15 and 1.40 under, make them 1.35 and 1.50 under. This accomplishes the same thing, but leaves the indexes alone.


-Toby

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Toby Lang,

You hit it on the head, It is so simple. But.....as Mr. Boudreau said in a different perspective, "they just d'ont understand the math and logic! It's sad!"

Ron Ortiz
U/SA amazing

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Tobby Lang

AMEN

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Going back to the original post here. Does anybody know if the SRAC acutually did vote to change the triggers. PLEASE do not blast me for asking. I know I am not on any qualifing sheets and I am not currently racing stock but as some of you that I have spoken to know I am very serious about putting somthing togeter for late this year or next spring at the latest so this does affect me.

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Jim,
Thanks for the encouragement.

Too many people are focused on the penalty phase of the ahfs. These folks should lobby their SRAC rep to change the HP reduction potential of the ahfs. It should be easier to get relief for dead end combinations.

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Yes, dropping the trigger like Toby suggested would be a good way to go. Also Bruce's suggestion of HP reduction has potential & should be looked at also.
Dropping all the indexes is not the solution to this problem.

I have lgwaldo@aol.com as the division 6 rep but must this must be incorrect as it is inoperative.
Does anyone know the correct e-mail address?

Allan

Re: ATTN Sportsman Council Members and Racers
 

Allan,
nhra should drop the indexes or increase triggers while being a little more liberal with allowing HP decreases. Accepting all the HP improvements and not making the necessary changes to the way the HP is adjusted is the biggest problem.

Think about it - they offer the racers many carrots by making changes that will increase HP and then they zap with us 20,000 volts when you try to make use of the changes. Kinda reminds me of Bill Murray in Ghost Busters.

The handful of guys who are against the reductions are digging their heels in and totally dismissing these HP improvements as inconsequential. Probably because they have never attempted to implement them or the changes were not enough to make them a class contender. Who knows? Something has to happen or nhra will start losing racers.

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Bruce

In my case next year they are going to allow me to run a four speed. This would probably pick my car up two tenth's anyway but '55 chevs never came with one so I do not believe they should be allowed & wouldn't be using one. They also never came with a Dana either but the original ten bolt is way to weak so to me that is OK.

Yes, something has to be done. Properly factoring all the different combinations is a daunting task & with not all cars running to their potential kind of impossible actually.

Allan

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Speaking of freebies in the way of hp enhancers, how many were "given" by the santioning bodies and how many were "cheated" into existance? SS combustion chambers (which still isn't enforced the way the rule is written), crankshaft clarification etc. as examples. Lack of letting the tech staff enforce the rules is what has led to where we are now. Hard to go back. Why not quit changing the rules in the middle of the game for awhile?

It isn't hard to hp factor correctly. ET vs.MPH vs. Scale weight will tell 90% of the story.

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I propose a moratorium on ALL changes HP, Index, Trigger, AHFS etc. for one year and let the Racers Committee with input from the racers and NHRA get together and figure things out that will be beneficial for ALL racers and stop making all these top secret knee jerk decisions that we have to live with forever! Jim

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I don't see how changing the indexes will accomplish, it anly addresses the manifestation of what is a horse power rating problem. No mater what the index is the same games will be played. We all agree the pesent system is being controlled by running just fast enough to win, but not faster than the 1.40, and making slow runs to keep the 1.15 review from working. Selecting the right make/model, year and engine combination coupled with money will always be fast. What is needed is a panel of "experts" that can realisticly adjust the low power to weigh ratios (also, mathematical simulation models can be developed).

If you want people to run it all out, then we need a incentive to do so.

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Bruce,

We arent wrapped up in the penalty phase. On the contrary, AHFS should not be a penalty system at all, it should be a method for determining if the playing field of each engine is level to start. We all know it isnt. Proper math can predict that.

The AHFS is scientifically invalid. End of Story. If NASA used this method, they would have missed the moon by a long shot. To fix it, a simple method available to high school students could be employed. Saving us now is a human at the helm orchestrating the results. It is better than nothing, but results are extremely tainted. Most common sense racers can see it even if they dont know the actual science behind it.

There really is a better way that is simple, and would make life much easier for NHRA and the racers.