Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

I tried gapless twice and they sucked both times. First time I tried them, it oiled sobad on the dyno it would not run. The oil rings they sent me were too small of a diameter. The second time we got it to run, but it was 15 hp down on power from a dykes with a napier back cut second.

If it was me, I would flush the gapless and put a flat ring on top. I would also double check the oil rings. Make sure the rings are on the correct side of the spacer also.

I still think a dykes is good with a stick. Our old 327 275 ran 10.74 in E this year. They aren't toobad and we never have issues with oil. You can turn the shortblockby grabbing the end of the crank snout too.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

I don't doubt you Jim, and others say the same - yet just as many say they love the gapless top. Also, I don't see how the top ring could affect the oil control to this extent.
I agree that the bores don't look too hot. This wasn't a fresh bore, just a hone job, but the guy that honed it builds quite a few gapless engines so I figure he knows what he's doing.
So it appears that the consensus here is rings? No other things to look for?

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

I have built several engines with gapless rings with no problems. Any time I see problems like he discribes, it turns out to be oil ring related.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

A gapless top ring is okay, although I rarely use them. I refuse to touch anything with a gapless second.

A top ring will cause oiling, if it leaks bad enough to create pressure in the crankcase and cause extreme windage.

If the bores are truly round, and have the proper finish, you can run the Total Seal Advantage package with a steel top ring, a cast Napier second, the spacers in the ring grooves (on top of the rings, not on the bottom) and as little as 8 pounds of oil ring tension. The bores have to be near perfect, you have to use the right assembly oil, and you need to break it in on the dyno.

I use Speed Pro SS-50U oil rings, and make my own oil ring package (Keith Jones at Total Seal taught me). However, for customers, especially if I do not know their machinist, I use around 12 pounds of tension.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

If the bores are truly round, and have the proper finish, you can run the Total Seal Advantage package with a steel top ring, a cast Napier second, the spacers in the ring grooves (on top of the rings, not on the bottom) and as little as 8 pounds of oil ring tension. The bores have to be near perfect, you have to use the right assembly oil, and you need to break it in on the dyno.

Alan, in your experience is there a right was vs wrong way to break in one of these motors, with this kind of light ring package, on the dyno?

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Those cylinders looks pretty shiny, and the scuffing looks like the rings are grabbing or something. You could try to run a sealed crankcase with a dual PCV setup, and clean all the oil out of the top of the pistons. If the finish is to fine, that spells trouble.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

I used to use them back in the '80s in circle track stuff. All impressed with near zero leak down numbers. No dyno testing to prove them. My stuff was as fast as anybodies, but found later it wasn't the rings. LOL everybody else around here was using them too. A monkey-see-monkey-do kind of deal, I guess. I always used their whole ring pkg, with no oiling problems.

Now I use very narrow Total Seal top rings, their Napier 2nd rings, and my own oil ring combo. I'm now down to 4lbs oil rings. (Love those Napier seconds!) One hand on the dampener to turn my short block. (Less than 5 ft lbs) Still dry up top. Cylinders MUST be straight with the right finish to get away with this! Personally, I would not try this without a diamond hone. Patterson machines my block and sells me many of my parts. I could never make the same power with their gapless rings.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Your picture looks exactly like my engine looked like, twice, trying them. I can tell you it wans't the cylinders, the second or the oil rings in my application because I changed the top ring and it ran perfect.

We never really figured out why or where the oil was coming from. I stand behind my previous post, get rid of them.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

In my opinion if cylinders are scuffed rehone them,call Greg @ Tri City with your bore measurement and depth of ring lands and get a set of his rings.
Mike Taylor 3601