Re: 65-85 under.
 

There clearly are a lot of combinations that need horsepower added,but I've always thought that somehow they need to take weather conditions into it.Might be hard to hook up,but I saw on Facebook that the air in Bowling Green right now is - 4200 ft.
I don't think it would be right to penalize a lot of the combinations when the air is that good.
But over a second under in Bristol might be worthy of some horsepower.
The mineshaft rule never took into account the weather.
Ironically, it only came into play when the weather was the worst like Indy.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Great point. I will add - what about the races where Thursday qualifying ends with a "mineshaft bump spot" of -0.80 under. Then on Friday morning, a cold front moves through and now everybody dials 0.20 faster for round 1. So it's not a "mineshaft event" but the immediate conditions are certainly "mineshaft!"

Maybe it doesn't matter because the mineshaft rule is dead but certainly another wrinkle/question mark/downfall/limitation/problem with the AHFS.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

I usually ran about -.45, without lifting or staying in it. I do not have a problem with the new system. If you are that fast (-1.20 or whatever)), you probably need HP. NHRA did not do any favors with their new system. Raising or lowering the indexes does not work, just moves numbers around. NHRA's factoring of cars is an absolute joke, so many adjustments that are so far off. The enhancements given to combinations just adds to the confusion. Racers complaining, just like it was 50 years ago. Same response from 50 years ago, "work on your stuff". Work on your stuff means writing for mercy to NHRA. Did you ever think of all the combinations that were absolute jokes before they were adjusted. This circus never stops, it will be like this ten years from now too. And you know what you are going to do? Just like always, OK.
Cut a light, hit the number, if it's heads up, good luck, go work on your stuff.

I have memories of Mike Senia's Cimmaron, Bob Dennis "banana car" Olds, Bob Shaw's cars, McKay's Buick, and a herd of 302 Fords.


Ron Ortiz
U/SA nitrous 4 sale.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

In reality- what’s the difference?
You ask for HP reduction or you ask parts or you do both.
A few continue building HP and either way it is accepted.
Still wondering what has swayed NHRA in this direction.
Out of the Big Three , who has the most reductions?


Merry Christmas!

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Barry, what has swayed NHRA in this direction? The constant reference
to the fact that the present AHFS is a failure and they decided to try and do something about. If everybody runs all out it works, just like the old system.
Nobody wants HP, so if you think what we did before was sandbagging, wait
till you get a load of this year. Why will we do this? Because everybody wants an advantage. This is racing, we want to win more than the next guy,
qualify better than the next guy, make the best run in our class in the Nation,
bury the record with some serious MPH to show off our HP, and we don't want to give anything back, we want to repeat great runs all of the time. Is this the answer, probably not, but shortening up the window to -65 to -85
under, AND taking away mineshaft, there will be a large amount of HP added to combo's at adjustment time. It is not a favourite with many, but it looks like all we got. Association Races look better all the time. J.R.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

I agree there should be mineshaft exclusions from the AHFS. It should be triggered by weather conditions and not the qualifying order. High barometer at or above 30.20 and below seal level conditions. Any runs during that threshold do not count. Just make sense.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

James,
I don't use drugs so I'm not high. I'm well informed but apparently not as well as you.
Merry Christmas!
Frank

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Billy really let them ruin their combo. It's their fault. What the he## good will that do. Not all of us race a combo that you don't have to worry about heads up runs in the eliminator. Why don't they drop the soft as he## index's by 4 tenths so you can't take a junk yard car and run under the index. It will also help put an end to the sandbagging and have more cars actually run their combo's to their potential. Running under the index is not a God given right. It took my brother and me 2 years before we were able to run the index. And for the few that are just starting out and building a new car. If your going to give up if you don't run under the index your first time out maybe Stock is not the Class for you. Or do what most of the new Stock racers are doing buy a newer $100,000 car or buy a proven older one that someone has spent the time and money on. And if you think there are only a few combo's that stretch the rules you need to look at Indy last year. If you can run 9 tenths under in that crap air you either have a real soft HP or you have built your car to pass what we now have for tear downs. We both know the deal with tec. So as long as you have built your car to pass today's tec I have no problem with the car. The tec we grew up with in the 60's, 70's ,80's are gone. Not the horse but the heard of horses left that barn a long time ago. I know lets go back to the 70's so almost everyone that has a Stocker that is built to pass today's tec should have to junk their car to make you and a very few happy. Go on flame away but you know I'm right . Or yah Merry Christmas to you BP

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Billy aren't you the one that's been on here for years saying that the 396/375 combo is built with all aftermarket parts. With all the parts you talk about there so good you don't have to do anywhere near the amount of work on them that you need to do with the stock factory parts to get them to run that fast. BP

Re: 65-85 under.
 

It's about time that you woke up Barry! Probably dreaming about what NHRA is going to give you next.
Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year! See you in the spring!

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Barry, let's say that Santa (NHRA) gives you and all of YOUR little friends (396/375 guys) a "special" present for Christmas. Let's say for the sake of this discussion,a pistol. While all of the rest of us get nothing but the usual socks and underwear. Let's say that you and your little friends are outside "playing" with your "special" presents and a couple of you manage to shoot yourselves in the foot. Is that Santa's fault? Are the rest of us at fault? Should the rest of the good little boys and girls (the rest of us in the Eliminator, you know the ones who got s#!t) be punished for your indiscretions? No, we shouldn't. YOU and your friends (the 396/375 guys) are at fault for shooting yourselves in the foot.
OBTW, YOU choose to run in a class where you have to be concerned about heads-up runs. You can change that.

Let me know if I have to explain this analogy to you so that you'll understand it.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

I think your getting soft Billy.............tell us what you really think.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Glenn, tell me that I'm wrong and I'll delete the post.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

A lot of the discussion here is bordering on absurd. In most discussions not only here those involved cannot see past their nose including themselves instead of looking at the whole picture speaking generally for everyone. Those in power who read this stuff realize that shutting off their hearing aids.

Those who screamed the AHFS will never work becuase it's so easy to manipulate well NHRA listened. This system for sure will work sandbagging or not becuase those who are fast still will qualify at the top and win heads up.

The fast guys have an argument though: All runs at NHRA season points earning events count "including all class eliminations". Class eliminations beyond 1st round are not part of qualifying earn no points therefore as per wording of the AHFS should not be included in the data base. Believe this was done a few years back. If they want class to be something other than time shots on the brakes who can cut a light and take less stripe they may hear something.

Why not petition NHRA to loosen up a little exclude runs after 1st round of class let them run and have fun. This is supposed to be fun. If NHRA turns up the volume on their hearing aids with this ask for special events like Indy and Sports Nationals be excluded from the data base completely to add to the show..

NHRA has a streaming TV station ya think more content like class eliminations of S/SS may just make some interesting content to add.



Marry Christmas & Happy New Year to ALL!!!

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Billy,
Just FYI, the unmodified 359 intake is worth, at best, 0.07 over a mediocre 163. We replaced a set of McDowell 291 cast iron heads with a set of Heintz 401 heads, both truly LEGAL, and the car slowed down about 0.08, and changing camshafts, etc, didn't help, the 10HP penalty on our car wasn't worth it. The 750 Quick Fuel is legal for everyone that uses a 750 Holley vacuum secondary carburetor. Now, our stuff was never "cheated up", it was always all dead legal. We didn't get any magic one off cams, either, still the original 0.520" lift since the engines were developed in 1965.



And last I looked, 2-3 years ago, the 396/375 aluminum head 69 Camaro was carrying at least 37HP above the factory rating for the "gifts", and has, for quite some time.



As far as it goes, it happens that it's a great combination, always has been. And the car itself is possibly the most popular pony car ever built, so, yeah, it has a massive amount of aftermarket support, including clone bodies.


Honestly, I'm cool with the dime rockets, and obscure cars, and hey, if you want to campaign a FWD that no one makes parts for, that's cool, too.


I'm just not seeing where those choices require the constant complaining about the 69 Camaro, which you never have to race heads up. Hell, I'm not even a huge fan of the 69 Camaro, my partner owns the car and he's the fan of them.


There are several reasons the car is parked, this crap is probably part of it. We're considering getting it out to play with it locally. Maybe. I love Stock, whining and all.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Alan, I respect your opinion more that most. I'm not complaining about the 396/375 combo. I'm just using it in an analogy to try and get certain Racers to understand that the Eliminator doesn't end at G/SA. There are a number of Racers on here whose only self-serving mission is to lower the indexes 3/4/5 (what the h&!!, lower them a second!) so that they don't screw up their own personal agenda! There are probably a dozen other combos that I could plug in to my previous post that will serve the same purpose. I really don't care much which way the AHFS goes. I'm AM however concerned when certain people start wanting to lower the indexes just for their own benefit.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

The indexes, honestly, haven't kept up with technology. Nor, unfortunately, have they kept up with what NHRA has allowed to pass tech in Stock. NHRA made those choices. A lot of them I certainly don't agree with myself.



Sadly, a lot of combinations haven't, whether or not they can.


I can see where people want the indexes lowered, and why. Even though lowering the indexes would make my life harder, and returning to Stock more questionable. And I'd dearly love to return. having a life threatening disease will make you want to live, and do things. It changes your perspective. Drastically. We won class a few times. We came close to a national event win a couple of times. And I left Indy with my tail between my legs. I have things I'd like to do before I take a dirt nap, things I've come close to.



Racing Stock is a series of choices. NHRA makes a lot of them for you. But you make a lot for yourself. If you choose to race Stock, you chose to race under the rules as they stand.


You choose your car (unless you have a partner who owns it). Now, it's up to you how you choose it, and what factors you considered. Is it something you had? Is it something you got cheap? Did you choose it because you like it? Did you choose it because you have an emotional attachment? But the factors you take into consideration when you choose, are your choice.



If you didn't choose it because it's a competitive combination, and it has support from the aftermarket, then you made the choice, and you don't really have a ton of room to complain. If you chose to try to race Stock on a shoestring budget, you're not going to be very fast, unless you're really good, not many of us are that good. Your choice. If you're not going to tear your stuff down and update, upgrade, test, etc, that's your choice, you chose not to be competitive. It takes the willingness to test, tune, and do R&D to be competitive. If there are cores available, someone will make cams for you. The piston companies will make pistons, and Total Seal makes lot of rings. There are valve companies that will make you valves. If you chose a combination where your stuff has to be "one off", the key phrase is "you chose a combination".


Am I a fan of what NHRA is letting through tech now? Hell NO! I'd love to see NHRA turn Wesley and Travis loose, and let them deal with it. Am I a fan of superseded parts? Not really, but I do see a reason in some cases. I just bought another cast iron original head, to have a second pair of original cast iron heads. I bought a set back that I sold. I don't like the cost to be competitive. I'm not running my own, and we've parked the orange Camaro, as much due to cost as anything. We know what it costs to compete at the level we want to. We don't feel like we can spend that money right now. We're not crying because others can. We're just parked.


As my late friend and fellow racer, Ronnie Duke, was fond of saying, "all drag racing takes is time and money. All your time, and all your money." Being competitive is a choice, if you're going to be competitive, you're going to devote a lot of your life, time and treasure. In Stock and Super Stock especially. And, as Dirty Harry Callahan wisely said, "A man's got to know his limitations".

Re: 65-85 under.
 

I do understand that there are lower classes, below G, and below where I like to run. Race cars should go pretty fast, at least for me, or they're just not really fun. If it won't run the quarter at least as well as my Harley Pro street Breakout, it just doesn't do it for me. I realize that ain't where everyone is in the sport. Some people really enjoy 13, 14, 15, and 16 second cars. That's their choice. And hey, maybe their indexes don't need adjustment, or much adjustment.



Like Barry Parker said, as much as lot of us older guys would love to see a return, at least partially, to the tech we saw in the twentieth century, those days are gone. Forever. I have to live with the fact that, as Jimmy Bridges says to my wife, "me and your husband, we's cavemen, we from back in history." Doesn't mean I don't want NHRA to tighten tech up. Just means I'm old enough to know not to hold my breath waiting on it.


Relax and make peace with it. It might even make it easier to convince yourself to go racing. We ain't gonna live forever.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Alan, your last 2 posts are "wise words from a wise man".
The only way that I could even consider an index reduction would be if it DIDN'T include the lower classes. You would have to agree that the "less than hi-performance" combos largely don't respond to or aren't included in many of the "enhancements" that have been given out over the years. Would you consider this for a minute? The L/SA index has been "screwy" (for lack of a better term) forever. Look it up. How about A thru K get -.10 (including the FS classes) and L down (including the FWD classes) get left as is? Or if A/K get -.20 and L down -.10? Would that be enough to keep the fast boys happy?

Re: 65-85 under.
 

At the St.Louis Divisional in October where 156 cars were trying to get into the top 128,the first 4 cars were L/SA and lower.
What is the point of this proposal?

Re: 65-85 under.
 

I have probably already said more than I should, or I am qualified to say. Again, we're parked, maybe for 2-5 more months, maybe for a lot longer, I don't know. I don't know if I'm through with my cancer treatments, I don't know how well or soon I will recover, and I don't know what the future holds, for me, or for my partner. I know what I want to do. God has yet to tell me what I'll get to do.


However, of course I agree, the combinations are all different. Some have gotten gifts, others have not. Almost all will gain from technological advances, some more than others.


The question becomes, do some people with some combinations have the right to hold everyone else back? That's asking a lot. Or, do some people with other combinations have the right to pull everyone else forward? Tough question.


There will always be a disparity. There will always be "the haves and the have nots," whether that be those who have time and money, and those who don't, those who want to work hard and those who want to slack, or those who have a combination with potential and those who don't.


You will, however, never stop progress. Whether it is progress you like and agree with, or progress you hate. It doesn't matter whether you like it, Barry Parker likes it, or I like it, it's going to happen, at best, we can hope to influence the direction. Trying to stop most of the progress will absolutely kill the class. It's already hard to draw a field, and a crowd to watch. Making the racing worse will not help that. We need to make the racing better, and improve the show, whether or not NHRA will promote it. Or the classes eventually die.


Perhaps those with legitimately slow combinations can get some help from NHRA in figuring out a way to more quickly move them to a class that they can compete in, without waiting years, instead of months. The problem there is, the system has been seriously "gamed", and NHRA is understandably reticent.



Those who simply refuse to invest the time, effort, and money to compete, one way or another, will eventually move on. Considering how tough Stock and Super Stock once were, that's how the classes started, and why they were separate from the brackets. It's not a matter of who does or doesn't like whom. It's a matter of the nature of a performance based class, eventually it gets serious about performance, or it dies, whether death is just the end, or a fundamental change in the class. If it ceases to be at least as performance oriented as it is now, or more, enough people absolutely will leave that death, as in the end, will be a certainty. There aren't enough "bracket" type racers to keep the classes alive as they are.



Let's be honest, the classes (Stock and Super Stock) need more competition, more speed, and lower ET's, in order to draw new competitors, and new spectators. We're still not working hard enough to get more class eliminations happening in front of more people, and we're not working hard enough to create more rewards for qualifying, for winning heads up races, etc. Whether or not it benefits any individual directly, it benefits the classes. And we're here literally arguing about whether or not to turn people loose and let them race without crippling their combination. I don't think racers or spectators are going to hang around for 1000' agreed dumps.



We need to step back and realize that some combinations have been rendered obsolete over the years, and they simply got parked, sold, or converted to street cars. we're not talking about combinations that there are tons of, we're talking about combinations that were marginal, and somewhat rare. No matter what, some combinations are going to fall by the wayside. Some people, willing to spend time and money, will save many others.


To put it simply, there's no solution that is going to make everyone happy, or keep everyone in the class. There are only solutions that are best for the class, and best for the majority. They're ALL trade offs. There will always be those who benefit, and those who don't, and some who get the short straw. The best we can hope for is continued survival of the class, and for NHRA to do good things for the class. Can there be compromise? Sure. The question is, is NHRA willing to work that hard on the classes? We may not like the answer.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Billy Van Winkle Have you been asleep that last 15 years. You need to go to the competition page and look under NHRA Approved products. There are 80 plus pages of accepted products. Including all types of Blocks Heads and Intakes and cranks just to name a few. Hard to believe Billys isn't it. They Have approved RHS, Dart, and Edelbrock heads. You have to stop just looking at the 396/375HP combo. I've never asked for any of them. And I used to shack my head ever year they would add another one. I wanted like you for them to leave the Stock I grew up with alone. But I finally said it didn't matter what I wanted and maybe just maybe you will realize this is almost the year 2023 and the Stock that we all raced years ago is gone. Lost for good.

I don't need any gifts from Santa for one of my cars to be fast. I paid my dues years ago and learned from testing, testing and did I say testing to find things that have nothing to do with the engine to make the cars I have run fast and any combo that I build will also.

Jim Boudreau is another one that has had one of if not the fastest 396/375 Hp car for the last 20 plus years. Why Billy not because it's a 396/375 Hp car. Anyone that knows Jimmy Knows he makes more runs a year testing than most make running their cars all year. Every car Jimmy has owed be a Super Stock or Stock car has been fast. It has very little to do with the combo.

Rip you also need to get a GM parts book. You will find both the heads and intake I run on my car listed. I can't say the same about a lot of other parts they have allowed cars to run.

Van before I raced my present car I ran a 1970 Corvette in G/SA My first full year with the car it was the fastest car at Indy in G.
But that must have been a Christmas car also. It had an aftermarket block, crank, rods, piston, rings, cam, lifters and rocker arms.

Your right we pick the combo or in this case the combo I run picked me. So you can pick a class that you can go years without running a heads up run. I would prefer not to. The main reason why I have raced in classes that are popular is that's a big part of Stock I enjoy. Having competition in a class that you run.

To each their own but if you race a class that you almost never have to run a heads up run you might as well have a bracket car.

Mr. Winkle as hard as it is for you to accept I hope one day you wake up and embrace the Class that is now called Stock. Yes it's not the Stock of old but to me unless the powers to be screw it up it is still fun to do. With the way the AHFS is today we will have a lot more playing and lot less racing to the finish line.

I'm not one that really wants to see them lower the index's several tenths. But the index's sure could have been lowered a tenth. Thats all they needed to do this year and maybe more would run their cars to the potential the have.

As Alan Reinhart announced at Epping a couple of year Please Dave Mohn please make this a mine shaft race so we can stop all this 1000 ft racing.

By the way it has been 13 years since they have lowered the index's. Even if you only picked your car up .01 the last 13 years between testing better parts or the now approved parts by NHRA you should have picked up at least the tenth. BP

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Well, you've got me on that one! Hit the indexes a second! I'll put something out there that will be OK.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

What year and why did the 396/375 replace the 427/425 as the engine of choice in the A/SA '69 Camaro?

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Frank I still think the 427/425 is a good combo. I ran a 69 Camaro with a 350/255 for several years. Jimmy Marshal would always tell me to put a big block in it and have more fun. He was right in some ways but he forgot to tell me that it would eat a lot more money. I chose the 396/375 Hp because at that time the Aluminum head for the 427 was ten more Hp than the stock steel ones. My back was already not in good shape so lighter was better. Seems most of the guys that run the Aluminum head 427 like to run in AA. BP

Re: 65-85 under.
 

I like to read posts on this topic. I usually don,t post. When Allen mentioned the index adjustment a few years ago i thought it was time. I just purchased my 390 67 Fairlane post car in 2008. It ran about 4 tenths under the index here in division 4. The next year i freshened the engine and up graded the camshaft, ring and piston package and picked up about 5 tenths. My engine still had the OEM crank and iron heads. If it wasnt for my friend and racing mentor RJ Sledge i would have never got there. So they lower the index 3 tenths so i gained 2 tenths for all my effort. Now with that being said i think a index adjustment may hamper new people to get started in this type of racing if they dont have the funds to buy a top notch car or try to build there own on a budget. I was told from day 1 that this is a expensive sport and that proved to be so. Each year i would try to improve the car and slowly was able to improve performance. Anyway no matter what happens iam still game. Currently building a SSGT.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Kirk I don't have the information but I would like to see them post all of the new Stock racer that have joined the Class in the last 5 years...I'd be willing to bet most have not built a car from the ground up. And the few that have knew what they were doing and went to a Stock engine builder. The problem with the AHFS the way it is now will put almost all the engine combo's in the pool to get HP at the end of the year. And for those who's car's can't run that fast there are others that may run your combo that can. Take a look at Indy qualifying this year in crap Indy air. The easy fix would have been lowering the index's a tenth. A lot of racers didn't want that. But as they say be careful what you wish for. BP

Re: 65-85 under.
 

More speed and lower ET's isn't the key to getting new blood into S/SS. The nature of the class makes it incredibly difficult for an outsider to come in. The class is fueled by multi decade racers or son/daughters of multi decade racers. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, Only the hardest core of racers would jump into the hornets nest, which limits the potential participants. I believe S/SS is the biggest it will be and will only go down in participation over time.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

I think thats a good question as to how much new blood is coming into the sport. We have seen a few posts on new people and projects. We all know it is usually cheeper to buy a running combination. The truth be known many people dont have that much cash to dole out at once. Iam currently a friend build a car that will be class legal but will have a bracket motor in it to sort out the car and then move to super stock. I think 75% of the racers will not be affected by the new rules.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

The aluminum head is still a 10HP penalty on the 427/425. We ran it for years. We never had a high dollar set of killer aluminum heads, so I guess that's why I don't care for the combination, although I could put ours together fairly quick, and without breaking the bank. I just don't think it would be fast enough to suit me or be really competitive. I bought my old iron heads back, and I have another pair. They're all going to be checked and flowed. I don't know what we're going to run yet, if we run. I'm thinking our aluminum heads will be better on a 396, which I have a few parts for. If I were running a 69 Camaro myself, I'd be looking at the iron heads on the 427, and a four speed.



Myself, I want to go with a 69 Chevelle. My two favorite Stock eliminator cars ever, are Harry Vineyard's 69 Chevelle, and Kevin Borgstrom's 69 Chevelle Yenko clone. Who knows, maybe I can sell off enough stuff and get lucky.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

On the mopar side we have the joy of never having parts to purchase from the manufacture, which makes it 2x more difficult. There are solid combo's to run in various cars, but next to impossible to get any pieces. I can't speak to how things are on the Chevy or Ford side. When I posted my ad up for S/SS cars, got offered a lot of great advice, almost all combos that don't currently have parts available. The few that are out there are being hoarded by guys running those platforms as back ups, which I understand. It has been quite the challenge to put together 2 good cars over the winter that at least have a shot in a heads up run, but also be consistent for the eliminator. We will have next to zero time to test before racing, so that should be fun :). If it was easy, everyone would do it, but that's not what S/SS is about.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Kirk the AHFS as it was written affected 75%. Have you been to a race? Stock racer's are playing the run the car soft game most of the time. Again look at Indy it's an indication how fast some of these comb's can go with no AHFS. And to repeat myself Indy is about 2 tenths slow compared to good air. If your friend is building a Super Stock car there is nothing cheap about it. Good luck

Re: 65-85 under.
 

When my brother and I started racing Stock in 1976 it was one of the few classes that paid money at the local tracks. We wanted to run a class that paid money and you could race at a National Event. Anyone that is starting out today with the big bracket races and what some tracks pay on a weekly basis would be not right to build a Stocker. Then again if your not right you will fit right in.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Billy I couldn't have said it any better. You choose what you choose and know the rules and tech and have consequences for what you do or don't do.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Barry, Glenn, Alan, you can call it a "Christmas epiphany" if you'd like but after looking at Nitro Joe's and some recent history, I will no longer dis-agree with moving the indexes! We all deserve what we get.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Billy,
It's easy to look over how fast people are going if you're concentrating on your combination that's unusual, and fits in a class that isn't too popular. I understood where you were coming from. What passes for "progress" sneaks up on everyone, especially us old guys. We don't necessarily like it, or agree with it. A lot of it I don't call progress.



I'm not a fan of the superseded parts, but I understand the demand. I know how long I searched for Chevrolet parts that I could afford. I think it's too bad a lot of the others have it even worse.



For some, there's nothing available to replace what they either can't find, or can't afford. The thing is, you can't punish everyone for the shortcomings of some, and you can't hold everyone back, either. If you told people "they don't make those for everyone, so you can't have it, even if they're common for you", no one would put up with it. This isn't third grade, where the teacher says "have you got a piece of gum (or candy) for everyone". It's not incumbent upon one group top have something made for every group. And since combinations are factored individually.....



What I don't see as progress is what's getting through tech these days. I have a very close friend who I won't name, but we were watching Stock at Indy, and watching a few cars run, he looked at me and said "I could put his heads on my Super Stocker and it wouldn't slow down 0.05". I took him some Stock heads I had for a customer, and he looked at them and told me "these heads would probably pick up your buddy's Super Stock motor about 0.50".


We literally asked about the valve job rule for Stock, and were told by tech guys, "Just don't make us look stupid". Well, with a good TIG welder and the right blast cleaner, I can do a lot that won't make you look stupid, because if you don't have an unmodified head laying there, or you haven't seen a thousand of them, you won't SEE what we did, so you won't "look stupid". I couldn't get an actual answer as to whether or not a radius valve job was legal. "We'd have to see it". It's a radius valve job, here's the cutter I want to use. "We'd have to see it". So if you decide you don't like it, you can't tell me in advance, but I'll have to cut eight seats out of two heads, and put eight more in, and hope all the work doesn't mess up the rest of the work, and hurt the heads.



Of course, the problem is, when caught, a bunch of childish people want to sue. So, NHRA doesn't want the fight. It wrecks the class, but what do we do? We as racers can't fix it. Like a lot of things, I don't know what the solution is. I know that I/we won't do it. We may not be as fast. But we'll be truly legal.


I love these classes, I want to see them survive and thrive. But I don't know the solutions, or claim to.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Alan, everything you've said here is pure truth. Thank you.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Wasn't there a rumor a couple if years ago that NHRA was going to purchase a Faro Arm system and measure a number of stock heads and use them as a reference against what people were running?

Stan

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Is there anywhere currently where you can see the average for your combination? Or are any of the places that do stats currently planning on doing this? Since it could matter at years end.

Re: 65-85 under.
 

Yeah do it yourself …..