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-   -   And the penalties are??? (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=78818)

Mike Pearson 03-18-2021 10:49 AM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
[QUOTE=Cbrinson47;636898]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Pearson (Post 636745)

Years back I won class at the gators and went through tear down. One of my intake valves measured .001 under the low limit. The valve was badly tuliped. I was tossed for the event and had to show up at the next event with the head off and have the valve size checked before I could race. I was also placed on 6 mos. tech probation. That infraction was considered minor. FYI I put new valves in the heads for the next race and the car picked up a tenth.


Did you know that the factory tolerance on a micrometer, Dial indicator, or dial caliper is plus or minus .001. I know this because I used to calibrate precision tools for the Dept. of the Navy. They should be checked with "GAGE BLOCKS" a least once a year. Tools being treated to rough treatment as in running all over the U.S. should be certified at least several times a year. Do you really think most tools being used by the NHRA tech. dept. have been certified?

Wesley was the tech guy during that tear down. When he found the valve just under the low limit he told me if I could find another caliper that measured the valve one thousanth bigger he would pass it. We checked the valve with 3 different calipers and they all measured the same. After I got home and fixed the heads I got to thinking I should have heated the valve to the temperature that it gets to when the engine is running and it might have grown .001 and passed.

Kevin Panzino 03-18-2021 11:10 AM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
[QUOTE=Mike Pearson;636911]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cbrinson47 (Post 636898)

Wesley was the tech guy during that tear down. When he found the valve just under the low limit he told me if I could find another caliper that measured the valve one thousanth bigger he would pass it. We checked the valve with 3 different calipers and they all measured the same. After I got home and fixed the heads I got to thinking I should have heated the valve to the temperature that it gets to when the engine is running and it might have grown .001 and passed.

It im not mistaken the exact same thing cost Lincoln Morehead the championship.

Cbrinson47 03-18-2021 01:37 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss (Post 636906)
Not only that, but if one of them is dropped it needs to be set aside and sent in to be checked / calibrated.

Stan

That is for sure !

Cbrinson47 03-18-2021 01:40 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
:D[QUOTE=Mike Pearson;636911]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cbrinson47 (Post 636898)

Wesley was the tech guy during that tear down. When he found the valve just under the low limit he told me if I could find another caliper that measured the valve one thousanth bigger he would pass it. We checked the valve with 3 different calipers and they all measured the same. After I got home and fixed the heads I got to thinking I should have heated the valve to the temperature that it gets to when the engine is running and it might have grown .001 and passed.

LOL

SS/GSI 03-18-2021 02:09 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
[QUOTE=Kevin Panzino;636912]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Pearson (Post 636911)

It im not mistaken the exact same thing cost Lincoln Morehead the championship.

Kevin, you are correct. It did cost Lincoln the WC in 2002 if I am not mistaken. The incident occurred at the US Nationals at Indy, and yes it was a valve that got tuliped by 1 thou.

ALMACK 03-18-2021 02:13 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
[QUOTE=Mike Pearson;636911]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cbrinson47 (Post 636898)

Wesley was the tech guy during that tear down. When he found the valve just under the low limit he told me if I could find another caliper that measured the valve one thousanth bigger he would pass it. We checked the valve with 3 different calipers and they all measured the same. After I got home and fixed the heads I got to thinking I should have heated the valve to the temperature that it gets to when the engine is running and it might have grown .001 and passed.

That's why I carry my own calipers with me in the trailer.
Plus some brake cleaner to clean the exhaust valves ( carbon)

SS/GSI 03-18-2021 02:28 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
I believe the the last decade of penalties handed out have not been harsh enough. The penalties must be directly related to future participation of a competitor and not monetary. We are not pros, we do not get paid to show up; therefore imposing a monetary fine on a sportsman competitor is absurd. The general population of sportsman competitors do this as a hobby and for fun. An extended period off from competition will definitely be more of a deterrent from cheating than getting a single race suspension and/or fine. All Bryan was trying to explain is that the NHRA's penalty spectrum has shrunk down to a "one size fits all" penalty for every infraction. You cannot actually believe that a competitor who inaccurately fills in their tech card, not resulting in any sort of competitive advantage can be compared to or given the same penalty as an illegal driveline component? NHRA needs to sit down, draw out all the infractions/penalties in black & white and stick to it. There will always be people over penalized and under penalized; however, if everyone involved knows they are all being treated equally, that is the end result, I believe, most of us would be willing to accept.

Larry Hill 03-18-2021 04:16 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Any bets on Gary paying the fine. I don’t think so. NHRA killed that cash cow. Give him a little time off and NHRA has a chance he might return.

Adger Smith 03-19-2021 03:40 AM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Larry, I think You are right.
These fines to sportsmen are not the same as the fines to professionals.
The Pro's have it covered with sponsors or in their budget.
The Mom and Pop racer is already hitting the retirement 401K hard just to get to the track.
The sportsman fine could be taking food off the table or the kids college fund.
NHRA needs to rethink that.
There is a better way for the NHRA police to enforce the rules.
BTW I'm like Billy. If I ever got a monetary fine I would pack it in.
In my last retirement period (since 2010) from NHRA I have found a lot of things to do that are as satisfying and as personally challenging as the races.
I've spent a lot of time flying my planes and working on them.
I think it is actually quite a bit cheaper than what I spent racing & the family enjoys it more.

1347 03-19-2021 07:42 AM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 636946)
Any bets on Gary paying the fine. I don’t think so. NHRA killed that cash cow. Give him a little time off and NHRA has a chance he might return.

Isn't there an appeal process? And if so, who listens ans rules on the appeal?

Crisco 03-19-2021 08:19 AM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
In your (everyone) opinion, does this QFT Stock/Super Stock legal carb have "polished" boosters?

Click the link....

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...325/QF1004.jpg

GUMP 03-19-2021 08:28 AM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Quote:

You cannot actually believe that a competitor who inaccurately fills in their tech card, not resulting in any sort of competitive advantage can be compared to or given the same penalty as an illegal driveline component?
Why not? One is done to win a heads-up run. The other is done to dodge one. The outcome is the same. Why should the penalty be different?

SS/GSI 03-19-2021 09:37 AM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 636990)
Why not? One is done to win a heads-up run. The other is done to dodge one. The outcome is the same. Why should the penalty be different?

GUMP...or whoever you really are...I guess some keyboard legend since I see you are a VIP Member! Bryan Worner has probably had more SS heads ups, in the eliminator, in the last 15years, than anybody I know. He has won them all! The race Bryan was speaking of, that he got tossed from, he was kicked out in the 2nd round and yes on his way to a potential heads up, where he did have that competitor covered on ET. If you read carefully to what Bryan and I said, the change in year did not affect any performance gain for him. It was a mistake, he took his "punishment" like a man, loaded up and went home. His POINT was that a tech card infraction and illegal driveline component, although both deemed as cheating, cannot or should not be given the same level of punishment. IMHO

pmrphil 03-19-2021 10:12 AM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1347 (Post 636988)
Isn't there an appeal process? And if so, who listens ans rules on the appeal?

Don't they charge you to file an appeal?

I'd be willing to donate to that cause.

GUMP 03-19-2021 11:38 AM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SS/GSI (Post 636996)
GUMP...or whoever you really are...I guess some keyboard legend since I see you are a VIP Member!

My name is Daren Poole-Adams.

James Perrone 03-19-2021 01:42 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Tech officials control tear downs make decisions on parts
Home office California makes the call on penalties $$$$
It’s nhra fault for having no tech.
Some people try and take advantage and you get what happened at Gainesville
Human nature. Take the easiest path to victory.

NHRA1926 03-19-2021 02:41 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
I was there at the tech trailer in Gainesville when they tore Mr. Summers down. They had to take pictures of the carburetor and send those pictures via cell phone to some one NOT at the tech trailer, and I assume NOT even at the event. Why would they have to do that? Are the tech officials at the race not qualified enough to determine if the carb was illegal? This is the second time NHRA has confiscated one of Mr. Summers Carburetors, and NO they did not let him have either one back! That is theft in my opinion. Why do they keep it? Why has that carburetor passed tear down at SEVERAL other divisional races, then all the sudden not pass at another? And again, WHY are they sending pictures to some one "Off sight" to make the decision if it's illegal? If Venturi size and throttle blade size are the determining factors, how can they say "Polished Boosters", which they actually told him were, "Too Shiny" be the reason for saying it's illegal? I guess NHRA can make up any reason to say the carburetor is "Modified". The NHRA rule book should specifically state in black and white with actual descriptions of what is illegal. It shouldn't be up to the tech inspectors at the event to make a determination without showing the competitor specifically what is illegal with the parts in question. The tech officials wouldn't even show Mr. Summers where in the rule book that he violated the rules! They just told him that it was, "Modified", again, with no specific rule pointed out from the rule book. It's like they just determined it was modified, and how bad don't you like it, and oh by the way, we are keeping your carburetor.

novassdude 03-19-2021 02:54 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NHRA1926 (Post 637045)
I was there at the tech trailer in Gainesville when they tore Mr. Summers down. They had to take pictures of the carburetor and send those pictures via cell phone to some one NOT at the tech trailer, and I assume NOT even at the event. Why would they have to do that? Are the tech officials at the race not qualified enough to determine if the carb was illegal? This is the second time NHRA has confiscated one of Mr. Summers Carburetors, and NO they did not let him have either one back! That is theft in my opinion. Why do they keep it? Why has that carburetor passed tear down at SEVERAL other divisional races, then all the sudden not pass at another? And again, WHY are they sending pictures to some one "Off sight" to make the decision if it's illegal? If Venturi size and throttle blade size are the determining factors, how can they say "Polished Boosters", which they actually told him were, "Too Shiny" be the reason for saying it's illegal? I guess NHRA can make up any reason to say the carburetor is "Modified". The NHRA rule book should specifically state in black and white with actual descriptions of what is illegal. It shouldn't be up to the tech inspectors at the event to make a determination without showing the competitor specifically what is illegal with the parts in question. The tech officials wouldn't even show Mr. Summers where in the rule book that he violated the rules! They just told him that it was, "Modified", again, with no specific rule pointed out from the rule book. It's like they just determined it was modified, and how bad don't you like it, and oh by the way, we are keeping your carburetor.

Remember the way the rule book is written if it does not say you can you can't. Under the Carburetor for stock It list what you can do and says you can not modify the external parts in any way.

L.Fite 03-19-2021 05:25 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
From the NHRA Replacement parts list under NOTES

Replacement Carbs -
*All venturi dimensions include the .015" maximum allowance/tolerance for Rochester Qudrajets/Edelbrock replacements and
.005" for all other carburetors.
- Modifications are limited to disabling the choke operating mechanism; replacing boosters, jets, needles and seats, accelerator
pumps (with same volume only), and squirters; replacing or modifying float assemblies and metering rods; resizing existing fuel
and air bleed passages; and drilling idle holes in the primary throttle plates. The original bodies, base plates, float bowls, and
metering blocks are required.

NHRA1926 03-19-2021 07:38 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Ok, Summers did not modify any external parts. It states that boosters can be replaced, well his boosters are the originals from the manufacturer! So how can they say they were modified, if the rules state that they can be replaced? Again, they claimed that they were, "Too shiny". Where does it state in the rule book that they can't be, " Too shiny"!

Dave Noll 03-19-2021 08:05 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crisco (Post 636989)
In your (everyone) opinion, does this QFT Stock/Super Stock legal carb have "polished" boosters?

Click the link....

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...325/QF1004.jpg

YES.
It does appear to have a polished finish. It looks like a tumble deburr machine, or a Centrifugal Barrel Finishing Machine with a mid size XM media. Or what theyre calling REM finishing. IMHO.

NHRA1926 03-19-2021 09:01 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
That's not even the right carburetor. Summer's is 2 barrel.

NHRA1926 03-19-2021 09:04 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
But, if that is an approved nhra carburetor, and it "Appears" to have polished boosters, why would Summer's be illegal?

Dave Noll 03-19-2021 10:34 PM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
BUT, replacement carbs are legal. For some applications within stock, a replacement QFT is legal. Holley makes a replacement 2bbl carb. Thats as much as I'm sayin. One of my cars uses a carb similar to the Summers application. :rolleyes: :D

Chip THELEGEND Johnson 03-20-2021 12:40 AM

Re: And the penalties are???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1347 (Post 636988)
Isn't there an appeal process? And if so, who listens ans rules on the appeal?

There is an appeal process and you and car owner cannot compete at any NHRA EVENT OR SANCTIONED TRACK until the appeal is done. So most take the penalty and move on.


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