Originally Posted by 1320racer (Post 489197)

What I love to do is dispel hearsay, proving the facts and the truth!!

Originally Posted by Dan Fletcher (Post 489209)

I never understood why deep staging was banned either; well, yes I did, see Bill Koski's post.

There is NO DOUBT that it can be nearly impossible to hit the tree leaving on a flash of the bottom in some cars. And "some cars" can even be 10 second cars (probably faster, but I can't speak to that). Case in point, my '69 F/SA car and the new Copo. Neither hits the tree great, I'm always on the "turned up" end of adjustment, often taking bumps. Conversely, the K/SA wagon hits the tree like a bitch! Instant rotation. Many times I find myself lowering rpm and tire pressure to keep it green. High 11 second car...go figure...

Originally Posted by Rod Greene (Post 489200)

Imediately had to go to 28" front tires, lower my 2 step RPM, and find a slower button


And why should automatics be allowed a delay device? I could have a 12inch throw button in my car and it still wont leave until I release the clutch.

Originally Posted by Michael Beard (Post 489222)

The amount of misconceptions here is staggering.

First and foremost, NHRA wanted deep staging gone because of controversy. Too many people didn't understand how the system worked, or you had people trying to take advantage of the system (both deep and shallow drivers), people racing to the starting line, etc. It was convenient for NHRA to have a show vote.



No. It is about reaction time. If you are deep staging, your ET will be slower. If you are deep staging, you cannot magically decide to run your shallow-staged ET in the middle of a run. Obviously if a deep car shallow stages, it will pick up ET, but the driver better be able to hit the tree. There's a bazillion ways to hide ET. Deep staging isn't "hiding" anything. It is completely transparent, predictable, and out in the open.



This isn't Comp Eliminator. Except in heads-up runs, S/SS cars have dial-ins on them, in which case any car can be able to break out. Deep staging is completely irrelevant.



There is a MASSIVE amount of difference in potential rollout when you consider the difference in human reaction time, vehicle reaction time, and timing systems. Some people have a preferred "spot" .03-.04 different than other drivers. Drivers can also make slight adjustments in how they look at the tree, whether it be closing one eye, sunglasses, or blocking the tree (which is worth .03 just by itself). Vehicles can have a huge difference in rollout depending on tires, rpm, ignition timing, gear, converter, shocks, and other suspension, in addition to whether the car drives through the beams or snaps the tire up out of the beam. Additionally, there can be as much as .06 difference between a fiber optic Compulink and a TSI with a certain style of LED bulbs.

I have driven two different cars that had the same 60', ET, and MPH that reacted over a tenth different. I have raced at two different tracks on the same day whose rollouts were .050 different. I have made adjustments to the car that have slowed the rollout .030, other adjustments worth .02, and others worth .012, all of which could be compounded.



The Just-N-Time button has a solid .100 or more available in it, in addition to the wide variety of variables noted above.



You need to define "hitting the tree". I "can" hit the tree shallow in the Turismo leaving off the second bulb going out, BUT my window of variance is *much* tighter when deep staging, and I'm much more consistent. With today's level of competition, .030's is no longer considered "hitting the tree". If I'm in the .020's, I'm making adjustments to tighten it up. That's what it takes to be truly competitive these days. While a slow car "may" be able to hit the tree, it's like moving the target further away at a gun range. The accuracy and consistency suffers. It's bad enough that slower cars aren't as consistent or as easy to drive the finish line with. If you continually add handicaps... well, it's no wonder there are so few in competition now.

Originally Posted by Mepprecht (Post 489255)

I have a time card from the summer nationals this year, I accidentally went deep.... On the reaction time it just says DEEP. It was R3.

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone (Post 489256)

Tree was already started so it didn't go red. The deep , no r/t must be part of that software package..Of course, it's shut off for the Pros.

Originally Posted by Mepprecht (Post 489257)

It went red as soon as I bumped it in deep.

Originally Posted by Tim Ellis (Post 489273)

I say let's get NHRA to allow it. It's true many slower reacting cars can't hit a light shallow. What is it hurting you if the other driver goes deep? Nothing. If you don't think it's fair , go deep too. Or better yet just stage quickly so the slower ( most likely) driver doesn't have time to go in carefully deep. He may still be bumping as his lights are coming down. Been on the bad side of that one.

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland (Post 489284)

1.) It was causing a lot of problems for the racers in the opposing lane who were not deep staging,

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone (Post 489299)

Bruce, I honestly don't remember this. Could you give us an example?
What I remember is it causing a lot of problems for racers who DID deep stage.
A few guys would skip their burnout or do a brief one, then charge up to the line and stage quickly so the d/s er wouldn't have time to get all the way in, instead of just running their own program.
NHRA didn't quite know how to deal with it, so they put up a bogus poll so they would be covered.
I called the poll bogus because ,as I mentioned in my first post here, polling people who probably would never deep stage makes little sense, unless they wanted a specific outcome.
Also included in this "poll" were those who didn't even understand the concept, as illustrated right here in this very thread.
ED, I thought you were done with this thread, a few pages back?

Originally Posted by The Hawk (Post 489282)

Maybe sometime this coming season I should put someone else in the Skyhawk to see how they do. At legal weight for V/SA at Denver, I shallow stage with 26" tall front runners and use either a 2 Step or foot brake and have troubles at times keeping it green. The normal 60` times are in the mid 2.20`s. This is with a low gear TH 350 trans and leaving on color on the last amber.

Originally Posted by jmantle (Post 489302)

Mark, ....
Jim Mantle V/SA 6632

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland (Post 489313)

Pros have a different deal all together. A long two months? Not for me buddy. Do you plan on racing again or just having some keyboard fun?