Re: Wagon Train
 

new book is actually a Stockerhttp://www.bettecets.com/4.jpg

Re: Wagon Train
 

Face the fact that you're benefitting from NHRA's gaffes.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Face the fact that you are stuck in the pass.....

Everyone has the right to drive whatever they want. Y'all have choosen the car you drive and have chose the cars we wish. Some have street cars that were turned into race cars by the owner because they thought they would have an advantage with that car. We have chose race cars that were built to be race cars sorry that we decided to drive these cars and not the OLD cars.

Re: Wagon Train
 

I would guess that if all of the sudden NHRA decided to take say 50 horsepower off of my combo and make it grossly under factored, you would cry foul. The bottom line is that I would just a like to see a more level playing field with fair, honest HP factors.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Are you saying that your combination never had it's day in the sun?

Re: Wagon Train
 

"New", "advanced", "built to be race cars" means absolutely nothing. Nobody cares.

The ONLY issue anybody has is the bogus low hp factors MOPAR, FORD & GM submitted and NHRA accepted. Nobody blames a guy from starting with one of those under factored new cars. Ditto the new CJs and COPOs. It is annoying to hear guys that want to tell you how their performance is just because they worked on it hard. Most will admit why they bought one, and why they are that fast now. Many had fast older cars, sharp racers. They are just faster now. Some just got fast when they bought a new one. Nothing wrong with that, just be honest about it.

You would have to be some special kind of stupid to start a new build on an old car the way things are now. An NHRA official & friend of mine told me Chrysler reps told them "We aren't coming back without an advantage." Ditto Ford & GM, I'm sure. As long as they sponsor races, I doubt the NHRA brass cares.

A gentleman I know, that works in a race engine shop that has built both fast LT1s like mine, and a couple of fast 360" SS DPs. He would likely lose his job if I mentioned his name, or the shop. He tells me their 360" DP SS engines never make less than 75 more hp that the LT1s, and they have seen more. They slow them down with restrictor plates, some just disconnect 2 barrels. I would have to spot one of those things 40lbs. At the time I didn't ask him about the Hemi, and after he reads this, he may not speak to me again anyway. :-(

A lot of people know what will happen if I hit the Powerball.. LOL

Re: Wagon Train
 

[QUOTE=Ed Wright;421448]"New", "advanced", "built to be race cars" means absolutely nothing. Nobody cares.

I believe some people do care or we wouldn't have people like you that B$&:! about it all day long...

Mr. Ed has your car ever been the fastest in its class?

I'm not trying to argue or fight I'm just saying stop busting out balls because we drive the cars we do! They have older cars that are getting blown out the water by other old cars why not go bitch about them. With out a heads up race none of the new car old car matters. First to the finish line with out breaking out still wins the race.

Re: Wagon Train
 

An illustration of an "Advanced HP rating" and a guide on how to fix one:

"The horsepower rating for 09-10 Dodge Drag Pak entries with the 360 cubic inch engine and a factory rating of 275 currently rated at 328..."

Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET---Speed-----Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT----ET---Speed
4909 Dempsey Pendarvis 4171 Greg Hill
C3 ****WINNER**** 0.191 10.486 123.43 0.028 10.705 121.91
E/SA Index: 11.70 (+/-): -1.214 E/SA Index: 11.70 (+/-): -0.995
Prior rounds:
C2 (T Miller ) 0.188 10.728 120.00 (C Marshall ) 0.065 10.982 103.73
C1 (B Kastle ) 0.268 10.928 116.78 (D Walcott ) 0.074 11.485 91.29
Qualified: #34 10.928 NS #48 10.992 NS

"...has been increased by eleven horsepower, to 339 horsepower; for Stock Eliminator.

NHRA's 2013 Automatic Horsepower Factoring System outlines that any run of 1.20-second or more under the index will receive an immediate index decrease or horsepower increase. These changes are effective Sep. 24, 2013."

Re: Wagon Train
 

I'm telling you people only care about the hp factors.
No, I'm not the fastest car in my class.

According to the newest Nitro Joes book, the fastest in my class is a Drag Pak STOCKER! Imagine how fast it would be built as an an SS car so it would 60'.

You don't seem to get it. The problem we all have is with NHRA accepting those bogus factors submitted, and the people that submitted them. No body cares that it came as a race car, or an independent chassis shop built it. Makes zero difference.
I was racing a long time before you were born, and I have never seen anything as under factored as some of these new cars.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Absolutely the right way to fix things!

Re: Wagon Train
 

Just wish it worked a little quicker, 4 years and 53 hp later, still going 1.20 under at Columbus on the brakes.

Re: Wagon Train
 

All this would be so easy for NHRA to fix. Follow NASCARs lead and put the cars on a chassis Dyno at the track. Maybe have a $1000.00 protest fee and pull the protested car off the scale and on the dyno. What ever the numbers are that's it. Wouldn't that work?

Re: Wagon Train
 

That would do it, just have to make sure restrictor plates and throttle stops were gone and, and all barrels connected. Need to stop them on the return road after class run offs, so they could not be detuned.

Re: Wagon Train
 

And, in Super Stock it is still 275 hp, four less than an LT1.

Re: Wagon Train
 

No. There are too many ways to cheat the system. The only way that I see to equalize things would be to force changes during heads-up races.

I do not fault the factories for trying to get any advantage they can with their new models. That is the way that it has always been played. The NHRA has some responsibility to keep it from being stupid, but there has to be an incentive for the factories to stay involved. There is no way that thirty years of advancement should be equalized with the stroke of a pen.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Jeff, you sure know how to beat a hornets nest.

Unless someone was personally involved in all of the negotiations at the manufacturers (Mopar, Ford, and GM) and with NHRA to get these programs approved how can you point fingers at who came up with what.
If NHRA can not believe the OEM's then who would everyone be happy with submitting all of the required data for every vehicle in Stk / SS ?

Would everyone be happy if NHRA put all of the current and future engine combinations in a simulation program, at 110% efficiency, and spit out a HP number for everyone, I think not.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Anybody with the slightest knowledge of engine building could look at the specs for many, compared to other engines at the same power level and know something is way wrong.
Likely they don't have the time to read all of them, and trust the mfgrs. Evidently usually the best approach.

Re: Wagon Train
 

What "advancement"? HP is HP. Makes no difference if it is a 1964 or 2014.

Re: Wagon Train
 

There have been huge technological advancements over that time period. Each generation has had it's run and shouldn't expect to stay at the top forever. I remember when everyone hated your beloved LT1 for it's unfair advantage over the older combinations. This has always been the way. Note that we are often reminded of past irregularities when Billy or one of those other old dogs discovers a new "dime rocket".

Re: Wagon Train
 

The whole point of the hp rating system is to put cars in classes with equal contenders. "Advancements" are not a new thing. My 350 with a Holley and aluminum manifold is more "advanced" than a 350 with a Quadrajet and cast iron manifold, so it is rated higher. Pretty simple concept.

Re: Wagon Train
 

I have no argument with that. In fact, I believe that is what I have been saying.

There are two 350's for the 2014 COPO. One has a supercharger the other has a N/A set-up. Both have different HP in the guide.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Good sir, never once did I mention anywhere that things are not the way that they "should" be in our world of sportsman racing when it comes to HP ratings. Merely stating that an "opinion" does not make it "fact" like some think it is.

Re: Wagon Train
 

The SS LT1 has been awarded a whopping four hp since it's release. Stock is a different deal. It's not that big a deal in SS.

Brett, what is an opinion, not fact?
The thought that a Stocker with an honest hp factor could not be the fastest in a Super Stock class? Don't care if you can walk on water and "worked really hard on it", nobody is good enough make up for ported heads, ported or fabricated intake, light rotating assy, better oil pans, better chassis, bigger tires and a trans brake. You think that is wrong? Faster than me and my home built engine is not a big deal, but the other professional chassis shop built cars with all the best parts and professionally built engines?
Your smarter than all of them? Really? You think Wanker is?

Re: Wagon Train
 

Good sir,
Never did I say that anyone is smarter than anyone else...fact. And everyone is entitled to their opinion, especially here...fact. Still does not make opinion fact...and that is indeed fact...it's in the dictionary...fact.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Fact:
noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth
2. something known to exist or to have happened
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true

Re: Wagon Train
 

Yes it is a fact that you have expressed your opinion.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Yes, and the earth is flat and only 5,000 years old. Having a little fun are ye? In order for any of these three facts to be merely opinions you must be able to disprove them. Otherwise they remain facts and your opinion about opinions is debunked.

Re: Wagon Train
 

There is one undeniable fact. Every one of the hp ratings on these new cars was bogus starting out. The only other hp ratings that were that bogus to start with were the Lt1's and the LS1's in stock. Anybody that has half a brain can look at the specs on these motors and see how bogus they are compared to the competition. I'll give you one example. Charlie I'm not picking on you, but the 4.6 l Mustang GT was rated at 300 hp SAE net. The Cobra Jet version was rated at 235 with more of everything than the street car.

When the manufacturers went from gross hp ratings in 1971 to net hp ratings in1972 NHRA factored all those motors 1972 and up before they hit the race track. Al Provoast told me his wagon went from 185 to 285 before he ever went down the track. The motor I run in my car is a 71 350 Z28 motor that was rated at 330 from the factory and is now rated at 315. The same exact motor in 1972 was factory rated at 255. In those days NHRA did their job. The first time they didn't was the 94 Chevy LT1 which was rated at 275 net and allowed to run at that hp rating, and is now at 346.

My point in this rant is that the factory race cars were rated below their equivalent street car ratings that were SAE net to start with and they had more compression, more cam, bigger throttle bodies and better manifolds. All of you guys that complained about all of us crying about the hp ratings, well guess what? We were right on the money.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Joseph I did some research on my combo 283/220hp Chevy II stick shift. Back in 89 it was rated at 230 and later that year it went to 235. At some point it went back to 230. In 2007 11hp was added due to a run Robin Brown made in Baytown. Last year it was reduced to 237. Not sure what it started at but after 40+ years of being run it is 17 over the factory rating. So that's a little info on my combo.

FWIW I feel Ed can say what he wants because he IS a current racer and he WORKS hard on his car. He is not a key board jockey. I think his car is awesome and if I remember right it's for sale. If you want to go fast turn key style go to Baytown and write him a check. See you there Ed.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Sir thanks for that knowledge. Was your combo ever a "killer" one?

Re: Wagon Train
 

Well when Robin made that run he went 9.89 with a little 283 with a tiny 4GC carb(look at one you will see what I mean) 1.41 under in 2007

Tim Nicholson went 9.80 @ 132 last year in Baytown same engine

Re: Wagon Train
 

Sounds like a pretty good car sir.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Super Stock Qualifying, Final Order
Sat, 17 Feb 2007, 09:32 PM
Final order after 3 rounds of qualifying in Super Stock at the NHRA Lucas Oil Drag Racing Series, South Central Division, NHRA Sportsman Challenge at Houston Raceway Park:
Psn--Num--Class-Driver, Home Town, Machine-----------------ET---Index---(+/-)

1 3010 SS/K Robin Brown, Madisonville KY, '66 Chevy II 9.898 11.30 -1.402
2 4999 GT/A Shaun LeBlanc, Bartlett TN, '88 Mustang 9.027 10.30 -1.273
3 3332 SS/BM Todd Frantz, Louisville KY, '98 Grand Am 8.502 9.70 -1.198
4 45 GT/DA Irvin Johns, Charlestown IN, '02 Cavalier 9.631 10.80 -1.169
5 4346 SS/M Richard Dick Lux, San Antonio TX, '64 Comet10.746 11.90 -1.154
6 4998 SS/F Red LeBlanc, Bartlett TN, '69 Mustang 9.498 10.65 -1.152
7 3 GT/CA Jerry Emmons, Pasadena TX, '91 Calais 9.556 10.70 -1.144
8 4488 GT/AA Terry Pearson, Spanish Fort AL, '07 Cobalt 9.260 10.40 -1.140
9 4403 SS/JA Gary Emmons, Friendswood TX, '96 Firebird 10.192 11.30 -1.108
10 5348 SS/NA Randall Klein, Lincoln NE, '56 Nomad 11.363 12.45 -1.087
11 4476 GT/AA Harvey Emmons III, Friendswood TX, '05 Cav 9.333 10.40 -1.067
12 4222 SS/AH Fred Henson, Madisonville TX, '68 Dart 8.745 9.80 -1.055
13 4522 SS/DM Byron Latino, Donaldsonville LA, '90 Trans 9.149 10.20 -1.051
14 4001 SS/GA Roger Green, Walker LA, '67 Chevy II 9.803 10.85 -1.047
15 4166 GT/FA Larry Stewart Jr., Clinton MS, '87 Camaro 10.090 11.10 -1.010
16 4483 SS/AM John Clegg, Victoria TX, '88 Firebird 8.299 9.30 -1.001
17 4634 SS/CM Toby Torres, El Paso TX, '88 Mustang 8.976 9.95 -0.974
18 428 SS/CS Kevin Helms, Lindale TX, '95 Achieva 9.685 10.65 -0.965
19 4700 GT/D Ken Howell, Baytown TX, '07 Cobalt 9.691 10.65 -0.959
20 5876 SS/LA Ron Taylor, Lincoln NE, '57 Chevy 10.809 11.75 -0.941
21 4919 GT/HA Wayne Winfield, Kemah TX, '83 Camaro 10.454 11.35 -0.896
22 4789 GT/DA Hagen Gary, Youngsville LA, '02 Camaro 9.951 10.80 -0.849
23 4420 SS/BA Tim Hebert, Thibodaux LA, '65 Belvedere 9.358 10.20 -0.842
24 4039 SS/DM Michael Hanegan, Woodland Hills VT, '89 Fi 9.371 10.20 -0.829
25 4808 GT/IA Mike Latino, Belle Rose LA, '02 Trans Am 10.678 11.50 -0.822
26 443X GT/EA Dewayne Custer, Nacadogches TX, '85 Camaro 10.140 10.95 -0.810
27 4277 SS/DM William Mclemore, S. Houston TX, '61 Corve 9.404 10.20 -0.796
28 47 SS/BS Slate Cummings, Hammond LA, '98 Grand Am 9.264 10.05 -0.786
29 43 SS/LA James Paul, Ft. Worth TX, '75 Duster 10.971 11.75 -0.779
30 4308 SS/KA Pat Joffrion, Belle Rose LA, '98 Camaro 10.797 11.55 -0.753
31 478 GT/EA Ryan Baudoin, Breaux Bridge LA, '89 Camaro 10.201 10.95 -0.749
32 4733 SS/GA R.J. Torres, El Paso TX, '68 Mustang 10.116 10.85 -0.734
33 4557 GT/DA Isaac Caswell, Houston TX, '95 Achieva 10.147 10.80 -0.653
34 46 SS/JA J.B. Clegg, Victoria TX, '74 Firebird 10.662 11.30 -0.638
35 4006 GT/HA Dale Hulquist, Crosby TX, '95 Camaro 10.735 11.35 -0.615
36 4694 GT/FA Todd Erwin, Kennedale TX, '82 Camaro 10.503 11.10 -0.597
37 4208 SS/BM James Caro, Houma LA, '04 Stratus 9.123 9.70 -0.577
38 4307 SS/DM Walter Gamble, Dickinson TX, '82 Camaro 9.639 10.20 -0.561
39 4567 SS/IA Todd Dumas, W. Monroe LA, '66 Chevy II 10.470 11.00 -0.530
40 4119 GT/H Douglas Elverud, Missouri City TX, '66 Nova10.723 11.15 -0.427
41 4726 GT/JA Jim Hanig, Houston TX, '80 Monza 11.210 11.60 -0.390
42 4539 SS/JA Andre Jenkins, Texas City TX, '69 Camaro 10.991 11.30 -0.309
43 4040 SS/MA Bob Utsler, Tomball TX, '65 Chevy Wgn 11.873 12.15 -0.277
44 4046 SS/MA Warren Birkett Jr., Baker LA, '79 Regal 12.071 12.15 -0.079
45 4209 SS/JA Allen Myrick, Walker LA, '79 Aspen 11.433 11.30 0.133
46 5333 SS/AH Randy Hopkins, Scandia MN, '68 Barracuda 10.173 9.80 0.373
47 4408 SS/P Jerry Caro, Houma LA, '68 Dart 17.051 12.80 4.251






Timing data courtesy of CompuLink

Re: Wagon Train
 

Joseph, I'm going to tell your Dad you are on here screwing with old men's blood pressure.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Lol Mr. Ed you finally figured it out. Lol it's too funny!! Glad to see your feathers get a lil ruffled before the season!!

Re: Wagon Train
 

In fact, opinions are opinions until proven to be fact. Debunked.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Bret, with all due respect, I still don't understand what I posted that was simply opinion, not fact? That a Stocker that happens to be the fastest car in a Super Stock class must be extremely under factored? Is that it?

I know you don't like me, easy enough to tell when I try to talk to you at the track.
I don't dislike you, just your hp factors. Those aren't your doing.

Re: Wagon Train
 

Several other examples I've looked up, seems like a difference of about 70HP is ballpark for a lot of these combinations. They could've started out most combos about 50HP higher than what they did, at least get them close to the right zip code, save several years of AHFS and gamesmanship, while still being favorable combinations to buy/build.

Re: Wagon Train
 

If you can get SS engine builder to talk about it (I may have burned a bridge) you will likely hear 70 is not at all too much.

At least they took some heat off the LT1, which has a bigger advantage in Stock than SS.
I know why, but would be in trouble again if I told it here. LOL

Re: Wagon Train
 

Mr Wright,
This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I like someone or not. For the record, you have never approached me to have conversation at the track. They are noy MY hp factors, they are the sanctioning bodies'. And my comments were all generalities.
My participation in this is now over since it has now sadly reached the point that people are talking about not liking other people. It is quite disappointing that what should be a community of fellowship in racers turns itself into heated debates over what we all love to do. Sad.