Re: Econo Modified
 

I really doubt any org. will start this, but we can hope. I believe they will keep doing, what they're doing, until no one hardly shows up to race, or watch. Insanity is doing the same thing over, and expecting different results. NHRA shot themselves in the foot getting rid of Modified, but hate to admit it. The magazines, if you remember, dried up at that point. That WAS the most interesting class in NHRA, and it was NOT the quickest. I doubt this idea would garner a lot of attention at a national, but at a local level, I believe it would. What we might beg for is one div. printing a set of rules, give us a year, and try it at the div. level, and national opens. Just a thought.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Interesting , I didnt know that about Pro Mod.....and LOL , its not that news travels any slower here.........I'm just not interested in the "politics' of drag racing.
The NHRA needs a complete overhaul and the idiots that run the organization are too thick headed to realize it. I saw the crowds this year in Atlanta that are a fraction of days gone by. Countdowns , classes spectators don't relate to ( i.e. 9.90 , 8.90 cars ) the "staggering" of participation from event to event in the ProMod classes , alcohol classes , comp. classes etc etc is just f'd up period.
If they were to "incorporate" some of the "heads up " class cars that run outlaw ( turbos , NOS and so on ) in their programs the crowd appeal would truely swell.
But like I said , its an archaic organization with their heads in the sand.

Re: Econo Modified
 

The politics and the f**kups in the upper management levels (and their lack of the feeling to need to fix their f**kups) make it harder and harder for me to enjoy going NHRA racing every year.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Personally, I think you there are some fantastic ideas for a spec head class. The biggest problem is that many people think in terms of selling the idea to the NHRA. Forget about the NHRA and start thinking in terms of forming your own association or group and sell that to the track owners. Have your own touring show but keep it realistic as travel expenses may dictate the amount of participation.

Re: Econo Modified
 

A little tip before you go too far: Don't call it Econo Mod if you expect spectators to come out on a Saturday night to watch.

Besides, SS and DI ,Dave Emanuel and company had Econo Mod in the late 80's .
Rick Winchester and Billy Sempsrott can tell you all about it..Restrictors on the in and out side and all.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Mark, good point maybe name contest.... plain old MODIFIED, ? ?

Re: Econo Modified
 

You sure? I only remember those articles talking about restrictions on the exhaust side. And what were the specs on those restrictions? I don't think they were that stringent.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Heads Up Modified. Somebody else figure out the letter designation.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Check out post 15.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=242305

Re: Econo Modified
 

The ORIGINAL C/SM rules were so big money wouldn't keep anybody else from being competitive. Automatics were allowed also. Had lots of cars. Weren't scary fast, but were fun.

Re: Econo Modified
 

We kinda do have restrictions. 750 cfm in, 3 1\2 exhaust out. max, 2 step header. I think sooner, or later to survive economically, all bodies will have to incorporate something of this sort. Once magazine articles pick up the class, and pump it up, it would be a hit. I think I could get one to do that, but only if it's picked up in advance. I don't think the name either way will make, or break it. I hope that's our biggest concern, what to name it.

Re: Econo Modified
 

No ,not 100%.
I know there was talk of adapters that would restrict the intake.
I don't remember the final rules.
I remember why it fizzled out...and that it wasn't really econo once a couple of Super Stock racers got involved.
Somebody's got to have the magazine articles..It wasn't that long ago

Re: Econo Modified
 

Just curious, what was it that a couple of SS racers did that could possibly ruin a class if it was legal? Also, anyone know if it would be hard or near impossible to keep out ceramic bearings?

Re: Econo Modified
 

Econo modified had an intake restrictor plate (4 @ 1" or 1.25" holes) and an exhaust outlet diameter restriction, originally only for 10.5" tire cars, this was way before all the high tech 10.5 tires avail today ( 14 32 with 10.5 on the side). From what I remember they opened up the tire rule to 14" and it was pretty much over within one race. The thought was to make a smaller plate for the big blocks to reel them in, but it fizzled.
A good friend Jamie Groves showed up for most of the races, pretty sure Ken Sharp won the first one?

We have the articles at home somewhere,


Venice Perno
SSCS 3041

Re: Econo Modified
 

Mark,e mod was 4 1" holes in the plate, 2.5 dia. collector and 10.5, 29.5 tire. I think it had two wt,. breaks 2800lbs. for under 370 ci. 3000 lbs. for big blocks over 370ci. Ken Sharp won the first two races in my Grand Prix using his and Bill Sempsrotts 400 small block.The whole thing folded when they changed the tire and collector rule. It was great to race heads up with no break out . If something like this will ever survive ,the rules must remain the unchanged. Rick.

Re: Econo Modified
 

THAT is the formula that you need to pursue if you are going to succeed.
Hi Rick, Happy New Year!

Re: Econo Modified
 

I'd go for a 10.5 spec tire so everyone runs the same tire. And I'd go for a 2.5 inch outlet. BUT, you have to have people willing to play. And then have someone write, and stick with the rules. If we're going to do that, then let's go all the way, and make it 10 lbs. per cube, 3,000# min. just like it was. Fine with me. Just let everyone know, no matter what, that's the way it will stay. By the way, can we just neck down our current headers to 2.5 inches? I believe the first tire allowed was a 11.5, but that may have been IHRA.

Re: Econo Modified
 

[QUOTE=Billy Nees;414795]THAT is the formula that you need to pursue if you are going to succeed.
Hi Rick, Happy New Year![/QUOTE

What Billy Nees said. X 100

Re: Econo Modified
 

Look, if this thing is going to have any chance at all, you are correct in that you need to have people willing to play. The BEST way to get people to play is to have a rule structure that is strict enough to limit the high dollar engine mods while being loose enough to allow in the maximum number of "pre-existing" cars. The cubic in/ weight thing restricts your potential entries too much. Whether you like it or not, you're going to have to come up with something that will attract not just obsolete Modified and SS cars but (like it or not!) Bracket cars and .90 cars too. Minimum weight, put a serialized, restrictor plate supplied by the series promoter or check all plates with a go-nogo gauge and replace your collector with a 21/2" one or put a cone on your collector and pre-check with a go-nogo gauge. In a matter of a half an hour a great number of cars can compete.
I think that I would leave the full tree vs. pro tree open and maybe even consider an instant green tree.

Re: Econo Modified
 

So ........ your going to allow Automatic Transmissions then, right?

If that's the case, what's the point of another class?

Folks were excited to watch Modified because of the high winding, clutch dropping, 4 dry hops and slamming the gears at 9,000+ RPM.
I wouldn't care if the cars ran 11 second E.T.s.
But, if your going to change things to allow automatics, your just going to have another class without the excitement.

Make the Class with 4 & 5 speeds only.

Re: Econo Modified
 

AMEN
and thank you
A 2.5 inch collector ? Really ?

Re: Econo Modified
 

I raced a SS/EA corvette with a powerglide BBC. This car pulled the wheels every run and every dry hop. Its not the Stick that makes the car work, its the suspension and the dry hop. Whoever said allowing an automatic makes it just another class hasnt been reading the rules. No fab manifolds, no dry sumps, etc etc, The collector is for a reason. Keep it simple and allow one size keeps the multiple pile of collectors useless in the garage from developing. Thoughts are appreciated...

Re: Econo Modified
 

AND IT WILL BE GUARANTEED TO FAIL. You can't dis-allow 90% of your customers. You guys have to decide what you are willing to LIVE with. We have a local Pro-Stick circuit and it's fun to watch and does very well but they don't run heads-up. In fact, add to the simple rules; Stick cars and trans-brake autos must add 100 lbs. to minimum weight.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Listen all. My ideal class for me has already been stated numerous times. I like a max 14.32 tire, 750 carb, 3.5 inch collector, spec heads from brodix, and clutch only. But, that's just me. I feel the restrictions we now have in there are enough to limit money spent. I have no, zero, nada, ziltch problems with bracket cars being allowed as long as they make min. wt. I ran a SS car against two Ness cars, and did just fine under these rules. Do we have to complicate it anymore then this? Use a spec spacer for everyone then, but same size as the carb outlet. Wouldn't that do the same thing. And If everyone is only allowed a 3.5 inch exhaust exit, wouldn't that accomplish the same thing? Also, Billy, I personnaly ain't against having autos in there. Also, Dick, a spec 3.5 collector would be fine with me.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Much as I would like to see a bunch of old Modified cars with stick shifts, if you make it clutch cars only, you will restrict the available car count.

This isn't just going to be a bunch of youngsters either, that would want to be changing clutches and transmission gear ratios all the time.

Whatever you end up with for engine rules, make it autos allowed, but no weight break.

Only other thing I see is delineating the newer aero cars from the old.
There isn't an exact year where it all started, so maybe a weight break for longer wheelbase.

You wouldn't need a big weight difference to correct anything ,with cu. in. / weight and a spec head motor.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Mark, what year of car would start carrying the wt? Serious question. Another serious question. Is there an advantage from clutching, and shifting a 5 speed, and say, a trick 200 metric?

Re: Econo Modified
 

The stick cars do bigger wheel stands?

Re: Econo Modified
 

I'll throw a curve ball out here...
In 2013, there were 798 Super Stockers and 1,112 Stockers that got points in NHRA. Yet we have difficulty filling 80 spots in National Events.....
If another eliminator (Econo Mod) were added, would it take from the existing number and just move them or would it bring in new cars/racers? My guess is that at least a good portion of any Econo Mod entries would come from existing racers....Therefore, why would anyone (sanctioning body) want to do it to just have the same results (number of cars).
Additionally, I have read comments on here about having a "spec" head....What would be the spec head for my Mopars? When you talk about a spec head, you are probably talking about Chevy engines, therefore, you just eliminated Mopar and Ford racers that a garage full of parts.......Econo Mod is a bad idea, IMO.....way to many variables.
What the sanctioning bodies would be interested in hearing is "how can we/they make racing more interesting to attract more cars, more spectators, and new racers"????

We have less than a hand full of sportsman racers that are able to travel the country and apparently make a living....I don't recall what a non-qualifying Top Fuel or Funny Car gets paid....or a first round loser, but I believe it is $10,000 to $20,000. Additionally, I don't believe they pay entry, like us. I could be wrong. I would be in favor of NHRA reducing the number of Qualifying cars in Fuel. Reduce the number from 16 to 12, then allow the fastest first round loser back in.....however the math works out.
Then, move the funds back to the Sportsman racer. Let's face it, $20,000 to a fuel car with a $3,000,000 budget is not nearly as important to them than $4.00 Diesel fuel and entry fees are to us....

Re: Econo Modified
 

Gary, where have you been. The Brodix spec head is for CHEVY, FORD, AND MOPAR!!!!!! Also, more cars will come, and I doubt that many will come from current eliminators. They can keep doing what they're doing, and get the same results. NOT interesting anymore. No one cares anymore in the spectator world.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Don't know ..That's why I said use wb maybe.
Have to look at the common cars out there..
Maybe under 108 , as is
108 -114 take out 50 lbs.
115 or more, (Tri Five Chevies) take out 100.

If you look at S/SS cars..ET's as good or better with automatics.
MPH usually higher with stick shifts... Simple physics there..although high rpm motors can couple a converter up more, but not 100%...unless of course you allow lock up converters LOL

Re: Econo Modified
 

One thing that you need to keep in mind:
The NHRA has turned it's back on Sportsman racing for many reasons, but I believe they no longer want to deal with trying to enforce and regulate engine rules. This requires way to much time, man power, etc which equals money.

Look around, the Pro Mod, 10.5 Tire Classes, Top Sportsman, etc are thriving do to basically allowing you to show up with what ever combination you can dream up, and as long as you meet the minimum weight and have the correct tire, your good to go.

We all know why Super Street, Super Gas and Super Comp have flourished over the past 25 years, same reason, run what ever you want and don't break out. Where they went wrong in my opinion was allowing electronics and throttle controls. Take all of that away and put it back in the drivers seat and see what happens!

If your going to start a new class, one must learn from the failures of years and classes gone by. I, like many of you have been there through all of this over the past 40+ years and that's why this discussion is taking place.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Glen, you can't put lipstick on a pig, and call it a goat. Bracket racing, for ALL it's participation, has ZERO crowd appeal. And one way spec might work, is like I've stated, winners, runnerups, and record breakers pull a head, and we, the racers seal the box, ship it in with the owners return address, and let Brodix make the call. I'm sure for a small fee, they would be happy to do it. Also, have 5 designated racers police the class. I already said I'd furnish the fuel check equipment, and the P&G gauge. And no, it don't have to be me policing it. There's several I, and others would trust.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Thanks Mark.That helps.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Sorry Randy, I have had no reason to keep up with spec heads. My Bad. I just checked with Brodix. Small block Mopar only.....not BBM

Re: Econo Modified
 

Let the racers pay a small fee and hire Wesley to be independent from NHRA as Tech. He is available. He also makes & implements the rules for EMC. It is set up where He is the final say on Tech.
No reason an independent class couldn't be set up the same way.
There are lots of possibilities. Pro Mod has already opened the gate for classes that are run independent from the mainstream NHRA classes.
With the right set of rules and a good enough show the program could be sold to smaller regional/local tracks. For something like that to work you have to remember it has to have crowd appeal so the track owner can draw spectators. That is a must.!! In today's markets that is a 180 departure from how a lot of local tracks make money. A program like this will not draw enough racers for a track owner to make it profitable by the draw off the racers only.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Randy,
I get it, trust me, but where does developing another "Class Car" bring back the spectator? They don't even watch Pro Stock!

Heads Up, pounds per Cubic Inch racing was always great to watch. I've been to Bethany, even raced there a few times in the late '70's. I've been to every NHRA national track event in the country, and almost every divisional event track dozens of times. I worked for a major racing sponsor.

There are small groups all around the country that are having some success with their specific styles of cars, The Super Shifters, The East Coast Gassers, The Southeast Gasser Association, as others. These are not NHRA or IHRA classes, and the area track or tracks that love them and embrace them with support do so because they bring in a crowd.

This "Style" of racing is what is bring folks back to the drag strip: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av0xgcchv18"]CPTV - THE ANATOMY OF A RIVALRY - YouTube[/ame]

Re: Econo Modified
 

Glen, this is just my opinion, so let me try to explain it. I grew up doing just no break out racing, so everyone knows where I'm coming from. When it was going, they averaged 1,000 spectators a night. And have had as many as 1,500. I ran at Eddyville in the 70's. They had standing room only, and 64 car fields in SS, and Top Street, (Comp) and turned away 86 cars the first time I entered. I was one. I did not qualify. The bump was .34 under. I went back when they started bracket racing. About 30 spectators. That's what we're missing, and I think it is over. I am quitting this year. Last year was my, and Steve Thompson's last. This just piqued my interest enough to stick around. Do I know it will work? No! Do I hope someone higher up sees the opportunity? Yes! Do I think they will? No! But it is fun to dream.

Re: Econo Modified
 

As an interested bystander I see no need for "spec" heads, or other items that require capital expenditures. Go get a 1" restrictor plate and look at it. If you can only get so much air into the engine and so much out ( restricted exhaust 2.5") why make people buy new heads. I really don't care what head or piston or camshaft is under that spacer, Think of the ease of tech, 1" 4 hole spacer , 1" diameter bores NO tapered spacers. Then P and G and scale, what could be easier. Maybe have a canted valve /inline valve formula, but I would still run my inline stuff anyhow. As far as stud mounted rockers and timing chains who cares, it has been proven to be the wrong valve activation for over twenty years, other than the initial cost the Jesel's/T&D's will be cheaper in the long run. Make the spacer an item that can be interchanged with everybody, and make us swap them around with each other at each race.
You have to make this a class that for a couple hundred dollars lots of cars fit. I know of at least 4 maybe 5 cars that would consider this game. The tire deal is also a non issue, in reality it would not be the 14-32 car that would be the fastest car, but the car that has just enough tire. Keep the restrictions to the items that count.
Just my two cents, It needs to be simple and attainable for everybody that thinks they MIGHT want to try it.

Venice
SS/CS 3041

Re: Econo Modified
 

Yes. Although a 2" cone would be better. The concept of coupling restrictions on both the intake (restrictor plate) and exhaust (collector) massively mitigates any gains from trying to work the carb, cylinder heads, etc, because it can't breathe. It's not worth spending money on a no-gain proposition. If you used this method, you wouldn't *need* a spec head. Install the plate and collector on any combination, and go play. Tech is a breeze.

We did extensive computer modeling of this concept, ending up with everything from 350 small blocks to 540 big blocks running within less than a tenth of each other. Some ran the first half of the track better, and some ran the back half better, but it all came out in the wash. You can make weight break adjustments for different transmission types, body styles, or whatever you find out is necessary.

We had 500+ spectators on Saturday of our American Doorslammer Nationals at Fayetteville in November, because we bothered to pass out a few flyers and only charged $10. Obviously not an overwhelming crowd, but not bad for "just a bracket race", and $150 marketing investment. Motor Mania TV regularly has over 10,000+ viewers watching big money bracket racing online. Anything that's not promoted will have zero appeal. Different types of racing appeals to different crowds. While not every crowd is interested in every market, there is a particular crowd for every market.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Ok, I'm confused. Am I to believe that a 461X head unported, with tall valves, and big springs will run with a 15 degree done by Reher and Morrison? Someone needs to tell the Nascar guys, they're spending WAY to many $ on heads in the restrictor plate classes. They don't know a stock vortec will do the same thing, and only cost $800.