Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Jeff, you already know how I feel about this and I hope you succeed in getting this done. Maybe this might shame the other two into doing the same. Hopefully they will eventually include more than just Challengers, Mustangs and Camaros.

Jim Mantle div 6 S/SS SRAC rep

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Yeah.....I seem to remember you had a hand in "developing" the spec's for the 5.9 DP also. LOL!!

RJ

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

This thread has turned out to be more positive then I expected it to be.

LOL

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Quite possible. They weren't very fast after driving over the crank

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Guess I need to get out more. I've never seen one break.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Worth repeating.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Hmmm? I wonder if they could sneak this one in under the AHFS, lol?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Yw2Q1u1ng"]CULT Energy Challenger! Smokin baby!!! - YouTube[/ame]

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

David, does that hint hint mean you have the desire to flog a Cobra Jet ? If I remember you might have mentioned it sometime in past.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

someone brought a dark colored COPO to the local car show in Franklin Square by my house yesterday. I was getting chinese food and I heard the most beautiful thunder,,,,,,
went out to see this. Got a lot of attention. No track on Long Island.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Was this driven to a cruise night or trailered to a show?

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

It would be easy to add the Charger if the other thing gets the feet it deserves. And the Southern Hot Rod, is that the New Orleans Southern Hot Rod. We have a customer with a Challenger, 426, 4L Whipple, makes 900 at the rear wheels. Course you can't hardlly drive the thing. Will spin the tires at 80. A/C still cold, nice stereo, and that is a major change from the old 426 cars.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

I think from a fan's perspective they are great for the sport. I love the old cars (I have a 69 Camaro) and the new alike (I have 2011 Camaro 2 SS Convertible). While I only bracket race, I can say watching Stock and Super a stock is my favorite part of the races, and the new cars have made it even better to watch. I can't speak to the competitive balance, only from an entertainment perspective.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

RJ, here is how the 360 evolved in the DP cars. John Donato, a Mopar engineer did the stuff on the DP motors. The 360 was actually put in for the SS racers so they could at least have some new parts in SSGT. The motor is an old 360 Magnum which has been around since 93, The block is the same except everything since the mid 80's had hydraulic rollers. The Magnum used individual pivoted rocker arms similar to a small block Chevy. The heads were steel and better than the old LA small block Mopars. Then Mopar made the R/T version of the Magnum head which was better and it was made in a small valve and big 2.02 valve. Mopar has not made either in many years. So the Edlebrock out the box was the logical choice, and it is only made with 2.02 valves and small stems (the stock heads had small stems) The pistons are flat with notches and are 120 grams heavier than a stock truck piston. I think John put a 5 where there should have been a 4. The cam is 490. The manifold is a Mopar M1 which has been around since Chris arrived on Santo Domingo. It is made in a Magnum and LA style, the difference is the bolts; the Magnum has vertical bolts. The throttle body is rated at 1000 CFM, the bores are the same size as a 750 double pumper. That motor will make more peak hp by about 10, with a good 750 or 850 race carb. With an engine management system, the average is about the same. The heads use Chevy rockers. There were 3 360 cars build in 2009 and none in 2010. Uses a race pan if you have the Mopar Performance block, and a Dakota pan if you use a truck block. It is the least trick motor of all the DP motors.
And now you know. There were 7 or less 5.7 Hemi motors made. The rest is 6.1. And that is your history lesson today. Test tomorrow.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Looks like 275 hp doesn't it Peter? LOL

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Ed, I can't help you in SS, but it is 328 in Stock. I am planning on running in SS in Dallas in ss/ka. The early mornings are beating me up. In Dallas, I can run about 5 under wide open, all barrels wide open, nitrous hooked up. Trying to decide wheater to go or not. Indy beat me up pretty good, hard to get going again. The 360 in stock has more factor in stock than the 70 and 71 camaro 350. What's up with that? That thing is down a bunch from when it was built. What's up with that? Big valves, big carb, and a Chevy for pete's sake. About 50 additions since they were built.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Love watching the new and old. The HP factors have to be adjusted the injected and super charged cars has some advantages but lets not forget about the trans brake. over all i say yes.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Jeff likes to tell me I need hp.

That's like me telling somebody they need to lose weight. LOL

I love him anyway. But not like THAT!

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Yes yes yes11111111

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Nothing against the new cars,but how could whats going on these days not having all showroom cars in the guide be c onsidered stock/superstock ...very sad

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Jay, I know most people think it is NHRA. In almost all cases the manufacturers won't send in the TI sheet on a model. The TI is the detailed spec sheet for whatever car is in question and it has all details on the car; wb, track, seating, etc, and more details on the motor. Also in many cases NHRA requests parts, usually heads, for their inventory. As far as Mopar, Jack McCormack when he was associated with Mopar always supplied these sheets. I can't speak for Chevy and Ford. I know in the distant past NHRA had to find out for themselves because the demand to race the cars (such as the 69 Camaro) forced them to derive these specs. Lately with the factories in the shape they were in the only models are the new speciality cars which obviously the factories have to supply the info as it is a built for the purpose car. As far as the new cars I took the TI sheet from the Drag Pak and basically just changed the motor specs because the standard brakes, independent rear suspension, and many mundane items are from street cars. In Stock the rear seat is removable, a cage is permitted, a rear straight axle is permitted (and the specs for the DP is what is acceptable), lightweight brakes are acceptable. I used dead stock Hemi motors. The old transmissions are acceptable, and on these cars the 8 3/4 or Dana is the rear unless someone wants to try the IRS. Also do away with the carbon fiber hood. So that is the short version of the Challengers off the showroom with VIN, Title (or maybe a reconstructed car). I don't know if Jessee Kershaw is doing the same for Ford, and I don't even know the Chevy people, but then again they probably don't like me anyway. Even the guys with the old cars who complain the most have cages, light brakes, no rear seat, maybe a different corporate rear end, and all the little trinkets we now have. At least that is my opinion. 2 cents and a cup of coffee will get you what I really think, and a beer will get it all.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Jeff,

That was very well put.

I like what you are doing. Hopefully this will open the door to a lot of less expensive combinations. Let's hope that GM and Ford will take note. Of course, I also have an almost finished 2010 Camaro, which makes me a little biased on this subject!

Take Care,

Daren

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

I am very impressed with your recent lengthy posts and what you are trying to do ..

I just want a blower Barracuda ..

Perhaps there would be a trade in our future ..

Ron

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

1st, the factories are selling these cars to racers and making money on them. Think about it! That is good for the factories. Was to PRI a couple of years ago and all the factories are selling race parts, even complete engines, why let the small business man make all the money, the factories might as well make the money.

I think the best idea would be to make one class a specific combination, say supercharged, 400 cubic inches, same weight and factory body and chassis ( I do not care about the combo, just make everyone be the same) Do not change the horsepower on the cars, just adjust the weight if one combo becomes dominant. ( I believe part of what killed prostock truck was dodges mini pickup had too much frontal area so could not compete) If you keep same engine and body package the same, nothing is outdated.

This would then be like the Hemi challenge, who does not like the Hemi Challenge. Great old fashioned heads up racing. you could also keep the other classes and factor them correctly. (and you know what those guys are spending on the hemi challenge cars).

PS it looks like brand loyalty is out the window if Barton is looking to change. Oh yeah, did I see Reher Morrison on a Mopar superstocker.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Barton needs to change. He needs new combos to ruin. Look at the mess in SS/AH. Kinda reminds me of the mess in Syria. Nobody knows what to do. I like the sorta heads up porposal of weight/CI etc.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

How much will a keg get ? LOL




Seriously, I like what you are doing Jeff to get those VIN Challengers in the classification guide...and this is from a Ford fan.

I wish I had the pull to get some late model VIN Fords approved.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

2012 Pony Car Sales and Rankings
1. Chevrolet Camaro: 84,391
2. Ford Mustang: 82,995
3. Dodge Challenger: 43,119
Sources: Ford Motor Company, General Motors, Chrysler Group LLC


Total 210,505 . vs maybe 300 total DP, COPO, or CJ's ?


And thats only for year 2012, 210,505 units that as of today 09/12/2013, will NEVER be eligible for Stk/SS/PureStock as produced..think about it, what a shame.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

i dont really have a dog in the fight ,but nhra should get those specs, they shouldnt allow one without the other....or should aquire those specs themselves...what are they paid for anyway???..wasnt stock supposed to be so that a guy could show up with the car he owns and have a place for it to race....somewhere along the line i think the original objective got lost...ever heard of the tail waggin the dog?

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Thanks for posting that.

Now that the prices of used 2011 Mustangs with the 3.7 V-6 are coming down, I would love to get one and mod it to fit Pure Stock ( or Stocker ) rules to see what it is capable of.
However, even if NHRA allowed it in their classification guide, it would probably be rated at 304 h.p. like what was in the Ford sales brochures. :(

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Alan,
Here you go ... the Ford specs are available, just have to snoop around.. Ford has deleted this link, but I have the downloaded pages in pdf form , seems cant upload a pdf file here on this site..
https://media.ford.com/images/10031/...g_GT_Specs.pdf PM me if you want a copy
Also, find a friendly Ford tech to "acquire" one of these DVD's, just remember to set your computer yr/mo date to the DVD yr/mo date.
All the info you need for stock... for pure stock you have to go to an outside source for the cam overlap/duration specs.
Hope this helps...

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Thanks Steve !
I'll have to go see my friend at the Ford dealership.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Hey Jethro Good Lesson and great teacher......I'm bringing you an Apple!!

RJ

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

It was trailered in.
glad people got to see it. Fans and future ones need to see these new cars.
I was there as they were getting ready to put it back in trailer. Don't know who it was.
Chris

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

That is the problem. They are unfavorable to build based on what they are rated from the factory. There are only a few newer cars that were underrated enough and have the potential to grow to be a competitive car in this type of class. Most go to other classes in the NMRA/NMCA etc.

Ford has the Shelby, GT, Bullet, Roush and 6cyl in the guide for 2005-2008(more before that also). No one to my knowledge has built one. There were a few in the works but when the Cobra Jet was released they switched a few parts and made a clone instead. When there was low interest to build a Stk/SS car from a new car the CJs in 2008 got people interested again in larger number. Now we have all 3 American companies with many different flavors to build.

If you have one of new cars why wouldn't you make a clone for a more favorable combo that uses practically all the same parts as the VIN # cars? For instance:2011-2012 GT(420hp/3600#)Swap pistons and hood and you have a 2012 CJ 5.0(325hp/3200). And if you dont want to tear down an engine to do a simple change of pistons then you are getting into the wrong class anyway. The Cobra Jets use many large components that people get when they buy the VIN cars as daily drivers. It's easy to build a clone and if your good with your hands it can be done for less money.

What FRPP did was create a car that people who buy the current Mustang do to them when they buy the production model. They made what us Hot Rodders already wanted into a Production car that runs down the assembly line.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

As far as the HP ratings go, that's what the AHFS is supposed to fix. I admit it could use some improvement but it does sort of work. As far as building clones go, great in theory but will these pieces be available in 5, 10 years? I seriously doubt it.
I see the "affordable" stockers disappearing in the future, hurting the participation in the class. Maybe that's what the manufacturers want, only their current hotrods in S/SS. I hope NHRA realises this would seriously reduce car counts in the future and have the fortitude to do something about it.

Jim Mantle

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

There's already plenty of the CJ parts no longer available. Some were never available.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

What parts are you looking for?
Body wise;
You can still get the hoods through a number of suppliers. The grill is from the California Special with the running horse removed. The front facia is from the california special also. The rear bumper is from the California Special and Shelby(08). Quarter windows from silver horse racing(unless your parts guy happens to have a set of original FRPP units THANKS MIKE!!!!), wheels it doesn't matter but some guys still have some. Stickers doesn't matter but you can still order them from FRPP dealers or I believe it's through competition graphics who made them originally??

The engine
2008-2012 5.4 is Shelby/GT40 heads, block, roller finger followers, hydraulic lash adjusters, timing chains/tensioners and Shelby cam gears. and the crank is available through FRPP. The TVS is available through Eaton, FRPP, and is standard on the 2013/14 Shelby.
2010 3v 4.6- Stock GT heads with FRPP CNC program, FRPP intake, stock crank and all the other stock items
2012 5.0- Stock GT everything except Mahle Pistons.(and F150 parts)
2013 5.0- Boss 302 heads, and GT/Boss block and crank and all the other stock odds and ends. The Supercharger can be ordered directly from Whipple but also some other dealers carry it. You can order the complete engine from FRPP or have your engine builder order everything also.
The Pushrod stuff isn't going away anytime soon I don't think as the Z304 heads, boss blocks and items are needed outside of Stk/SS.

A lot of this stuff can be bought at FRPP dealers, Ford Dealers and found in Junkyards. The TI sheets also have the factory transmissions covered in the GTs.

Everytime I need anything I just give Mike at BuyFordRacing a call. He has a lot of items that seem hard to come by.
So far I've gotten from mike the Competition kit BIW kit, CJ Recaros, FRPP quarter Louvers, FRPP block off plates, FRPP air bag delete cover.(and 2 sets of Ford GT/Shelby hydraulic lash adjusters for another project) as soon as paint is done I'll be ordering the rear, aeromotive fuel system, block, crank, heads and tensioners. We are talking about wheels now. I've picked up the other items from the local Ford Dealer. There are some other odds and end stuff that I'm getting from Holbrook and Watson racing. All and all, all the parts have been easy to come by. Sure my progress has been very slow since the whole thing is being done when I have the extra time and money. Work has been really busy so I've only gotten maybe 1 or 2 Saturdays a month to work on the car and I'm on a shoe string budget compared to some others running the class. But it's been fun doing all the work myself and with some help of family and friends. We should be out and ready for the 2014 season with the car if I can free up more time and money.

Kdanner
Let me know what you are looking for and I'll see if I can help you locate anything or items on hand.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

I know the AHFS works for combos that are underrated.

However, if a combo is over-rated to start with, it's dead in the water and no-one will be interested. And there are several of them already in the classification guide.

Thus the problem I see here.
Even if the VIN cars are accepted, their S.A.E. HP ratings are too high to start with.
Now....if there was a multiplication factor times the factory rated power to start, then you might have more people interested in the combo.

Example: (only because I would love to toy with one)

2011 Mustang V-6 3.7L...rated from Ford @ 304 h.p.
Take 304 hp times a starting factor of .80 = 243 h.p.

The AFHS would take it from there and adjust up if needed.

That might have more people building new, fresh combos. :)

Just an idea.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

I've already tried chasing down the parts with more than one person at Ford racing, didn't get anywhere. Those 2013 302/350 cars, that they only built 3 of, you can't get the zip tube between the throttle body and MAF, and never could. The intake manifolds they sell over the counter today, not the same as what came on those cars either.

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Rumors of the 2015 Hellcat Hemi Challenger are around. How owuld they fit in NHRA ? Drag Pack?

Re: Are COPO's, CJ's and Drag Packs good for our sport?
 

Ford Racing placed an ad in this weeks National Dragster, I though its pretty cool that they show support for not only the new cars, but the old ones also.http://classracer.com/FR_NationalDragster_090513.jpg

kdanner, I don't know why your having issues locating parts. PM and I will locate all parts that you need. They are available from Ford Racing. I assume when your talking about a zip tube, you mean the air intake. There is no air intake on the 5.0 N/A like they have on the supercharged combo. The part number for the COBRA JET 5.0L 4V INTAKE MANIFOLD M-9424-M50CJ*, and its the same as the as factory cars.
http://classracer.com/M9424M50CJ.jpg

Jim, I assure you the parts will be around for a long time. You can build a clone CJ, 5.0 N/A or 4.6 for the same money you would spend I any similar older combo. You can pick up 2010 Mustang fairly cheap these days.