Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

And after thinking about it and watching it again. The stage and pre-stage lights never even came back on when he rolled through with the REAR TIRES! There was definately a glitch in the system and it was not caused by something on the outside like a flash.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

The same exact thing happened to me at the denver divisional in 2011 but there was no rerun though i showed them the video. Check it out.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=3A5BI...%3D3A5BIAz6W2w

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

This exact same thing happened to me at the Winternationals 2 years ago, but with a very different decision from Mike Rice and company. Same left hand lane. The red light came on when the 2nd yellow came on just like this run. The only difference is when I saw the red light come on, I stayed put and never moved. When the red light came on BOTH the pre-stage and stage lights went out just like this run. When the tree reset BOTH the pre-stage and stage were lit proving the car didn't move.

I went up to the tower and argued this with Mike Rice and Rick Stewart in person. I brought with me witnesses who saw this happen and all confirmed the car didn't budge. I even brought the person who I raced with me (happened to be my father) and we all agreed to a re-run. Rice and Stewart said they've seen this before and called it a shallow stage red. They say the car rocks backwards out of the beam and turns on the red. End of story.

They would not allow a re-run even though both competitors agreed to it. They said there decision was final as this happened before and they NEVER allow re-runs in these situations.

After the video of the run was posted a few days later, I emailed Mike Rice showing the video that was posted on this forum. Here's the link to the video and the run is right at 19:00:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9h_IGDhxxs"]2011 NHRA Winternationals Super Stock Round 1 - YouTube[/ame]

Here's his response:

It is too hard to see in the video. The shallow stage deal is very real, especially without the StageLoc program. The car doesn’t have to move, just the change in tire pressure when on the brake or two step can be enough to rock out of the beams. There is no doubt in my mind that this is what happened to you at Pomona. You may not physically see or feel car move, but the beams are so sensitive that it happens. You are not the first that it has happened too and certainly won’t be the last.

When the system red-lights, it locks our both the pre-stage and stage beams, which is why both go out. When system resets, it allows them to come back on.

Mike

The best part of that email is "You are not the first that it has happened too and certainly won’t be the last."

I am emailing Mike now asking why their decision was different in this situation than in an identical situation. I will let you all know his response.

P.S. Anyone else wonder why Jimmy's car leaves when the last bulb never came on? It's like he wasn't even looking at the bottom bulb. I wonder how you can legally get your car to delay enough to leave off the top bulb like that...

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

I was wondering the same thing why does Defranks car leave when it does? Hmmmmm...

Mike I think the win was stolen from you.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

I am a computer geek and wondered the same thing - I timed it with the computer and the car left when the bottom bulb should have lit - all I can say is very interesting - perhaps a reflex action on his part - but I would think you leave when you see it....

Good job Mike

Ron

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Yes I would also say this is very interesting...

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

yes i did see that jimmy's car left when the last yellow should have come on'

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

If you step frame-by-frame, it appears that the red-light comes on before the pre-stage and stage even go out. Realistically, it must be happening simulataneously, and it's just the slow reaction of the incandescent stage bulb as they lose their glow when power is removed. Also, this car is up against the converter, and obviously not a "shallow stage red" from rocking back.

I'm sorry, what? The red light should be a function of the stage light not being lit prior to the green light coming on. Why is the red light supposedly making anything happen with the stage beams? If they are being blocked by a tire, they should be on, period. If this is not the case, then they've eliminated a possible checksum for situations such as this.

Come to think of it, I've seen this happen at a bracket race in the east as well, no camera flashes involved. While this is going to be a crazy tough error to diagnose and repair due to its infrequency, we have to recognize that it *is* happening.

No, not at all. I'd be more surprised if he didn't leave. We've had practice tree races where one lane had the bottom bulb burned out. I took that lane, and my reaction times did not change. Most people anticipate the 3rd bulb, whether they realize it or not. You can learn more about the how's and why's on my guest editorial on www.thisisbracketracing.com.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

@ Racin Mason ... I remember seeing your run and feeling you got Effed . Can't wait to hear the response as to why yours was not a re -run as well.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

After studying the three different videos presented here from different incidents, and the Div. Director comment, it appears that they have added some kind of lockout in the system so that once it thinks the car has left the starting line, it keeps the pre-stage and stage from lighting again. If you look at older videos, you can see the stage bulbs flicker when the rear tires roll through the beams, so presumably they have tried to eliminate this "problem" (possible distraction for the faster car?) by locking them out, as Rice was describing. I stepped through Mason's video like the previous one, and the same thing happened: The red-light comes on instantaneously with the power going off to the pre-stage and stage bulbs (and since they are incandescent, they appear to go off *after* the red-light)

It may be a coincidence, but in these particular videos, it appears that the red-light is activated at about the time that the slower opponent's rear wheels are crossing the starting line.

In troubleshooting, my gut feeling would be to look at something related to this pre-stage/stage lockout as being the culprit.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Mike did an awesome job. He is a stand up guy and in my opinion he won that race! This same thing happend to another customer of mine and we were told that it was a legit redlight and that there will be no re-runs............... Its a real bummer this ended up like it did!!!

Never the less Congrats to Mike and Paula for a runner up!

Erik Jones
Jones Engine Development

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Dang it, looks like we are forced to reinstate the flag drop again until we get this electronic glitch worked out...:eek:

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Several years that happened to me in St. Louis. I got the wrong end of the treatment until Mike and Paula told me to take the slip to the tower because it was all fowled up. They looked at it, pulled up the run on their computer and just said re-run. I guess it was my lucky day, but without Mike and Paula, I would have left. I had already brought my wife and kids to the airport. Anyway I unloaded and went to the final round.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

I agree - thank you - I thought I was the only "old guy" that needed to be leaving by anticipating the last yellow ... just not very accurate

However - when ever anybody is that good conspiracy theorists abound...

Ron

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

It's ok guys and gals....now we know if it happens to us we ALL get a re-run!!!

Not taking anything away from Jimmy, he deserved the re-run...but NHRA, please figure out a solution to this BS and make it fair for everyone that this happens to. (or figure out the problem so it never happens again)

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Thats true----- New rule...... When it happens again, We ALL get a re-run !!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Based on past decisions there should not have been a rerun.
But now what is a great question to think about???

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

yes this is going to come back and haunt NHRA and i tell you what if it happens to me there better be a re run.NHRA has opened up a can of worms on this one.there should have not had a re run!!!! and if anybody thinks it was a camara flash i have some beach front property 30 miles offshore i want to sell you.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

So, is Stage-Loc turned on at all National Events? I asked this question on Page 3 of this thread and haven't seen a answer yet!! I also noticed a nice thread return "Red Light Answer" of the Stage-Loc explanation from Pat Joffrion.

Scott Dugdale
5317 I/S

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

If I win, I win and I won't come back for a re-run unless NHRA can prove to me, right then and there that there was a problem with their equipment that can be proven, without a doubt. "I think a camera flash caused it" isn't good enough. I'd be willing to wager a guess that the first winner has less than a 25% chance of winning again when you take into account the extreme emotions involved in a win and then pulling the rug out from under you. And going from a eurphoic high to down right pissed off. All the while the other guy is calm as when the issue started. Let me revise the chance down to 15% or less.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

I personally think Mike got the shaft.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

I agree that it is tough to win two times in a row.The last time I had a rerun,I got my butt kicked the second time.

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2000#indextop

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Jeff, in my opinion you would just guarantee that you lost that race/round as NHRA would declare your opponent the winner when you did not show up for the rerun.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

And if your red light comes on for any reason, you will calmly accept your supposed loss? If a piece of paper blows through the lights and shows you breaking out by three seconds, you'd just accept that? If a photocell hangs and you are attributed with a .150 R/T and every incremental is exactly .10 quick, you'd just accept that? If you went through the finish line in a nearly heads-up race and it was so close you couldn't even tell who got there first, and the timeslip said that your opponent got there first by .200, and you were .200 off your dial, despite all of your incrementals and mph matching another run, you'd just accept that? (Believe it or not, I've seen that happen... more than once.) Errors happen. Glitches happen. Components fail. Humans are make mistakes. I understand needing to have a level of trust in the timing system, but we also need to recognize when something's not right.

I'll take that wager. In fact, it's happened, even in circumstances where there was a re-run that was demonstrably *not* called for. You're there to execute a run to the best of your ability. You can be glad, sad, or whatever when you're in the pits, the lanes, or the burnout box, but when you're on the starting line, shut it off. It's business.

When I operate an event and there's an issue, I don't even want to know who's involved, if at all possible. You need the facts and circumstances, peroid. The individuals shouldn't matter. If the situation was reversed and you come up with a different answer, there's a problem.

In my opinion, races should be won or lost on the race track by the driver's actions, not by an unexplainable glitch, particularly one that has been documented to have occurred at multiple tracks.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x...psa5ee5ef8.jpg

With the new system, the pre-stage and stage lights *stay* out once it thinks the car has left the line (ie., you don't see them flicker as the rear tires pass through the starting line). In the photo, you can see the red-light is already on, despite the pre-stage and stage bulbs remaining lit.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Both NCIS and CIS and Bones and Law and Order and British Secret Service and CIA and FBI are on this case. No stone left unturned. Apparently these situations have happened in the past and seems remedy has been uneven. Dick Tracy, Superman, Spiderman, Batman, Robin, The Joker, and several others were also contacted.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

This topic makes me sick. Just because the guy has a #1 on his window and has won multiple races he doesn't deserve a fair race? Now he's stealing wins? Now he's giving Mike the Shaft?
Some have even alleged that he has a delay box because his car moves "somewhere" around when the last yellow should have been there. I cannot believe that people are letting their jealousy get the best of them, but that is proven by their idea that emotion has something to do with what happens when you line up to race. Take your emotions out of it like you should do when you pull into the water box and look at it for what it is. Fact is, both drivers drove their azz off to get to the finals and a computer glitch shouldn't be the deciding factor in a National Event win, let alone a very rare double up.
Just because NHRA is now recognizing their equipment failure doesn't mean it’s some big conspiracy to F over Mike. This can only help people not get F'ed over in the future when this happens again... and it will. You think he's cheating, put your money down and tear it apart when he shows up at a race you’re at... and he will. When you’re right, you get your money back and get to be a hero. If you’re not, you'll look like a punk. Talking crap online is cheap and cowardly. I feel bad for Mike. Looked like he stung the crap out of the tree on the first run, but I'm pretty sure he didn't want to win because of a computer glitch.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

I sure don't see a camera flash in that still......

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

In My opinion that when this happens The driver thinks he knows what happened , The crew Chief thinks he knows what happened , The Starting line crew is a little concerned but thinks they may know what happened , all this is emotions now > but the $50,000.00 timing system knows what happened it was a red light no emotion there

Now since no other racer has gotten a rerun when this has happened the rerun that happened to Mike Cotten was the wrong decision made based on the pass decisions > now we have a whole new Problem that "will " come up when this happens again ????
__________________
Don Kennedy 7701 SS

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

I don't think this would be much of an issue at all if NHRA would be more consistent on there rulings. Sometimes they award reruns, sometimes they don't. Sounds like a commercial, sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. Either they need to take action to prevent this, or be more consistent on their rulings. My vote would be to eliminate the problem to keep the racers out of the situation of a rerun. Congrats to both on a great day and Mr Cotten especially for handling a tough situation with dignity.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Your right. Now if only we could get Germany to start killing Jews again. If only we could get slaves again, then the world would be better. Point is, terrible decisions in the past shouldn't be the standard going forward. NHRA has recognized their problem; now let’s move on with this decision for the future. I'm sorry if someone you know or you yourself got screwed by this in the past, doesn't mean we should keep this going.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Jeff, you forgot the "The Toxic Avenger" :cool:

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

I have not seen that Since You have said that NHRA reconized this as a problem when did this Happened?

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

A rerun ordered on the basis of a malfunction of the timing system is an admission of a problem occurring. Pretty self-explanatory.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

I agree Hagen, problem is if it would have happened to anyone else there would not have been a re-run. It took Jimmy Defrank to have this problem for NHRA to basically admit there is a problem. No offense to Jimmy.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

At Topeka years ago, Rick Stewart leans into car and says get this POS outa here, same deal, no discussion. Mike Cotton vs Joe Smo = no rerun IMHO

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Your statement sounds like an oxymoron; it appears that you believe and implying there was favoritism towards Jimmy, nevertheless, you state that you are not offending him?

Mike and Jimmy are awesome drivers and competitors; it appears their is a problem with the electronics that NHRA knows it exists and they have not addressed and maybe the reason why they made the call.

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

SSDIV6, I disagree, I read Howard's comments like this: certain racers have a degree of cachet with the decision makers...and DeFranks are WELL EARNED by their support and achievements, absolutely NO PROBLEM with them at all, the problem continues to be NHRA's uneven application of decisions across the board.

I have always been told, "you stage...you own it".....so reruns for all with "glitches" in EVERY ROUND or NO RERUNS....NHRA should make the call and enforce it.....no sitting on the line holding the race up lobbying....just back it out and accept it.

We all can come up with this scenario or that. The tree is our umpire or ref,,,they make bad calls, its part of the game....replays suck.....you stage, you own it...whatever happens...its not a perfect world....just let us know what to expect (ALL THE TIME)

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

Times 2 ^^^^^^

Re: Mike Cotten you are the MAN!
 

X3 Randall said it better than I could have.