Re: Rambler All-American
 

1967

Rambler/AMC made their 'first real move into the street musclecar scene'.

Not to discount the little 290/225 HP 4-Barrel/4-Speed.

Those 1967 Model 440 2-Door Sedans, weighed a nice #2817 lbs.

They were tight cars.
With a weight factor of 12.52 Wt/Hp
1967 NHRA Class = F/S
1968 NHRA Class = J/S
1969 NHRA Class = K/S
1970 NHRA Class = L/S
1971 NHRA Class = L/S
1972 NHRA Class = SS/N or D/S (Pure Stock)
1973 NHRA Class = SS/N or J/S (Pure Stock)

Even back in 1968 or 1969, a well-prepped street Rambler American
with a 290 4-Speed, and 4.44 gears,,,,,,,,,,,

Could get into the 14.80 range.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Wheels Up...

http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/47...600x600Q85.jpg

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Old school,,

Edelbrock #R4B,,,,,,,,,,

also notched for the Holley Three-Barrel Carburetor

http://victorylibrary.com/graphics/R4B.jpg


Also, 1967 Optional 'over-the counter' camshaft specifications
Model # H-302 Hydraulic
Lift; .477 Intake / .477 Exhaust (Duration 302*, 98* Overlap)

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Couple of shots...

http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/12...600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/50...600x600Q85.jpg

Re: Rambler All-American
 

The gold/black Rogue belongs to Larry Blatt. He bought that car new, and it's a true X-code car!

The second picture is the Ketchum brothers... that my friends is a 9 second all AMC car... here's another shot of it putting on a show:

http://theamcforum.com/forum/uploads...ks_Wheelie.jpg

Also, the 220-American X-code, that I showed a picture of the trunk (illustrating that there really were 220's with 343's in them)... that car also belongs to the Ketchums, and here's another shot of it:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...Purkeys006.jpg

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Rogue X,

Nice photo's,,,,,,

Found '3' different production number totals for the 1967 Rambler 343 cars.

Not that it matters, they're still 'Super Rare Super Americans',,,,,,,


Article '1';
'58' Rogues and '55' Model 440's,,,,,,,,,,,113 Total Production
No 220's and/or Station Wagons

No Car Breakdown

Article '2';
'40' Rogues and '18' Model 440's,,,,,,,,,,,58 Total Production
No 220's and/or Station Wagons
4-Speeds Only

Breakdown;
'10',,,,,,,, Model 440 2-Door Sedans
'8',,,,,,,,,,, Model 440 2-Door Hardtops
'33',,,,,,,,, Rogue Hardops
'7',,,,,,,,,,, Rogue (Convertibles)

Article '3';
Is all over the place,,,,,,,
Listing approximately 250 cars built.
Including Model 220's

Re: Rambler All-American
 

NHRA 1967 Specification/Class Sheet

With the 343/280 HP engine;

Car Weights;
Model 220 (2-Door Sedan),,,,,,,#2898 lbs......(10.35 Wt/Hp) = B/S
Model 440 (2-Door Sedan),,,,,,,#2892 lbs......(10.32 Wt/Hp) = B/S
Model 440 (2-Door Hardtop),,,,#2951 lbs.......(10.54 Wt/Hp) = B/S
Rogue (2-Door Hardtop),,,,,,,,,,,#2971 lbs.......(10.61 Wt/Hp) = C/S

1967 NHRA Class Weight Breaks;
B/S = 9.50 - 10.59 Wt/Hp
C/S = 10.60 - 11.29 Wt/Hp

AHRA 1967 Specification/Class Sheet

With the 343/280 HP Engine

Formula-6 Stock D/S

Which was 4-Barrel Engines, with a Cubic Engine range (340 to 359)
Hydraulic Camshafts Only.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Paul,

You have stumbled into the "black hole" of AMC documentation.

I am not aware of anyone that has found ANY verifiable documentation regarding the production numbers from the "east" assembly-line (where the Americans were produced) for 1967. The "58" number is generally accepted by the AMC community as accurate, based on the short period of time the X-code cars were produced (January through aproximatelly May of '67).

The list that you found that shows no 220's and 7 convertibles, coincides with a list that has been debunked by the AMC community, for two reasons. First, we currently know of several (verifiable) 220 X-code cars that still exist today, and secondly, because we are fairly confident who those numbers came from.

Several years ago, a person who was very influential in the AMC-community, was basically black-balled for "borrowing" original copies of AMC (corporate) materials, fraudulantly altering that documentation, and presenting it as "new", previously undisclosed information... those exact numbers were ones that this individual claimed as being true.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Rogue-X,

Whether the information is correct or not,,,,,,throws a curve into the picture.

More of Myths, Mysteries and Misconceptions,,,,,,,

Sources;
'Standard Catalog of American Musclecars'
by John Gunnell

Krause Publications
Rambler Americans, Third Generation

American Motors Corporation
Regional Zone Office
Elmsford, New York

Re: Rambler All-American
 

67RogueX-code, I'm just curious how many 220's does the AMC community believe that were made exactly or is it kinda like the story goes on some of the 426 Hemi cars Chrysler say they never built, but everyone knows that a few snuck out of the factory.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

In general, we are all looking for data that can be vetted and the source validated. So far, all we have found is conflicting information on the web... and that data that does not conflict, was obviously "cut & pasted" from someone elses web data. When enough people repeat the same bogus stats, some people are prone to take it as "gospel".

In the absence of actual Corporate documentation regarding the 1967 model-year production figures for the east Kenosha assembly-line, where the "small" cars (i.e.; Americans) were built, generally the AMC community believes:

1. The 58 (total) number is probably pretty close.
2. We have currently existing (and varifiable) 2-door examples of 220's, 440's, and Rogues that are X-code cars.
3. We do NOT know of any X-code 4-door cars (which includes station wagons, which only came in 4-door models).
4. We do NOT know of any convertible X-code cars.

...and that's about what we know...

But like everyone else, we love to hear the "my Dad told me that his Uncle had a Cousin, whose barber knew someone who thought he was absolutely pretty sure that he might have remembered..."

Re: Rambler All-American
 

67RogueX-code, it sounds like you're disagreeing with the sources that Paul supplied everyone and posted earlier in this thread, you practicaly begged him to give it up and post it so the rest of the AMC community could see it...You asked him where he got all his information from exactly, and he told you, so are you disagreeing with his sources now...Also while were at it, why don't you tell us the name of this person who allegedly borrowed documents from Rambler or AMC, so whats the real story behind this, why would he do that and doctor information.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

I think Paul, based on his post from 05:05AM this morning, is finding the same thing the rest of us have found. There are a lot of websites quoting production figures that either:

1) Can be proven to be inaccurate (as I've illustrated, by posting pictures of a varifiable 220 X-code car, yet the documentation indicates that none were built.
2) Totally contradict each other with how many were built (how do we determine which is correct, without ACTUAL production figures with dates, counts, and VIN-ranges?).
3) Or are blantant "cut-and-pastes" from other (unverifiable) websites.

Over on "theAMCforum", we have (probably) 100 guys that spent several decades either working on the assembly-line in Kenosha or at AMC dealerships throughout the 60's and 70's. There are at least 40 guys that between them (total) own several 100 1967 Americans... several of which are the original owners. There are a handfull of members that even have actual AMC blueprints and schematics from the engine plant. And, one of the members is generally acknowledged as the official AMC historian (Tom Benvie, who has posted here with regards to his research on SS/AMX's).

None of us have ever located the official AMC documentation regarding the 1967 (East Kenosha assembly-line) production figures...

But we're always hopeful that they will (someday) turn up.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

I'm trying to download the newspaper article from 1969,,,,,,,

Not that the information in the Evening Star Newspaper is 100% correct.

It only stated that Scott Smith had a limited production 1967 Rambler
'Super American',,,,,,with a factory installed '343' 'Typhoon'.

Scott Smith (car owner and Parts Manager at Geis Motors) mentioned
that his 'Frost White' 440 Hardtop 4-Speed was only 1 of 20 or so
of these Model cars built with this engine.

He said, in 1967 the 343 4-Barrel 'special performance engine' was usually found in the Rebel, and some specialty Rogue's.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Thanks a lot Paul, we appreciate your efforts.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Article '1';
'58' Rogues and '55' Model 440's,,,,,,,,,,,113 Total Production
I called factory back in 1979 and asked how many 343 americans were made in 67. A few weeks later a woman called in said and 67 there were 4000 hdtps. made and 113 had the 343. At that time I didn't know there 2 different hdtps. 440 & rogue . The only # that matches here is the 113 , nothing else matches up . I own two X codes , a fully optioned Rogue (minus headrests & rocker moldings ) the other is a 440 2 dr. post . Keith Coggins

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Thanks Keith,

I don't remember what you told me... what kinda of times were you getting out of the 440, back when you raced it?

Re: Rambler All-American
 

This is starting to sound all very familiar...it sounds exactly like the mopar gearheads and the magazines arguing about production numbers...you know you will never nail down an exact production number because one will always pop up years later and the actual numbers will be revised again & again...so in the mean time can some one please post some more photos of these things on the track, lets see what they were meant to do instead. :rolleyes:

.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

It's been 32 yrs. since I've been down the strip. I still have my ride a 67 440 2dr. sedan . Engine is a 67 343 + .030 with TRW 4bbl. replacement forged pistons, it was decked .080 for a O deck ,this gave 11.9-12 to 1 Comp. with 71 3192691 Hds. ( 50.60ccs 1.687 ex.). Stock crank , rods , flywheel & dampner. Cam is a Sig Erson 320HLM 302 deg.-.570 lift (258@.050). Manifold is a Torquer with a Brazewell 2 BBL. ( 715 cfm). Hooker headers for a Gem. - Hrnt. Lakewood scatter shield was added after I blew a stock pressure plate ( not a pretty sight ). Clutch is a Mcleod 10.95 . Trans is the stock 2.64 ST-10 converted to a W series . Stock driveshaft . Rear is the AMC 20 with the stock dana powerlock with 4.88 s and a set of one pc. Henry's axles. Rear springs were moved in 1 in. per side to clear 10.5x28.5 M&Hs. Best time was a 11.82 @ 116.5. The car is probaly faster but I only leave a 6000 & shift at 6000 . It goes througl the lights at 6600 . Car WT. is 2820 Keith http://theamcforum.com/forum/smileys/smiley12.gif

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Are there any AHRA record books hidden anywhere ?

Re: Rambler All-American
 

I think you answered your own question,,,,,,,,,,,,,THEY ARE HIDDEN,,;)

For 1967 AHRA classes, the 67' Rambler (220, 440 or Rogue) with the 343/280 HP
was classed in 1967;

AHRA Stock; Formula-6 D/S
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Model 220 and/or 440 was 1967 NHRA classed in;

NHRA Stock; B/S

With the; 67' Z-28 Camaro, 67' 440 GTX and/or 67' 440 R/T's, 66' and/or
67' 400 GTO's and 400 Olds 4-4-2's,,,,,,,,,,just to name a few cars.

The Rogue was 1967 NHRA clased in;

NHRA Stock, C/S
With the; 65' thru 67' 289 'HiPo' Mustangs, 66' Dodge D-Darts, and the 'Killer 61' 283/270 HP Dual-Quad Corvettes.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

I'll throw this one in here,,,,

One of our friends 1970 Rebel Machine 390 (390/340 HP)

(1970/1971 Photo)

NHRA Class; H/Stock
Owner; Bobby Schlegel
Car Name; 'Lil Miss Carnivorous'

In 1972, they were classed in SS/K.

One 'sharp looking car'

http://www.doverdragstrip.com/phpBB3...ile.php?id=233

Re: Rambler All-American
 

okay calling all the Rambler/AMC experts out there, can anyone tell me everything there is to know about this car...I sure wish that I was out there.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a.../dragamcs8.jpg

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...ragamcs8-1.jpg

Re: Rambler All-American
 

I was looking records and rules for AHRA formula stock . There was A for dual quads, B for single 4bbl , & C for 2bbl. I set my 440 up for C , at that time the record was 11.80 . You were allowed some mods like after market cam , stock production heads ( year did not matter ) after market manifold , headers.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

In the AHRA formula classes they were classifed by lbs. per cube in .

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Found a couple more old shots...

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...sc0410f58d.jpg

http://www.ssamx.com/DanDiVita%27s%2...20parenzan.jpg

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Thanks Moose,,,,,,,

Rockford Rambler
Rockford, Illinois

1967 Rambler American Model 440, 2-Door Sedan

'America's Lowest Priced Compact Car'
And running 13.40's in 1967 too.
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...d67Rambler.jpg

Re: Rambler All-American
 

So what were the 'new car prices' on these things anyways, were they really that cheap back then...

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...esRambler2.jpg

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/6790/80827.jpg

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...sc03c09cf5.jpg

Re: Rambler All-American
 

I was told by Larry Mitchell that the Rockford Rambler american was sold and was totaled in a accident . The Randall american was sold and the new owner raced it manzaneda dirt track , it was totaled . There was a power blue one owned by Bill Anglin in Phx. he sold it and a few yrs.later went to buy it back only to find out it had been totaled in down town Phx. I had bought a few parts from a wrecked one yellow with a black vinal roof. Jessie Snyders went to a wrecker. What's left ? There is a white one in new england area that was used ( if I remember correctly ) in the early SCCA ,it was wrecked but it's still arround does the name Wentworth ring a bell? Larry Blatt has one in PA., theres one in Calgary , the Ketchems , Bob Willcox in TX. , Rocky Lear in KY. Keith Coggins ( ME ) x 2 .I bought the Rogue used from Randall Rambler , the 440 sedan I bought from Bill York ( today he has a pro comp car ) . One in Finland . So thats 5 down . 9 still here , what's left ?

Re: Rambler All-American
 

What were the wages back then $ 3.00- $5.00 hr?

Re: Rambler All-American
 

:rolleyes:...come on Keith, I know you were working back then (too!)... heck, if you made $400/month, you were doing GREAT!

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Sorry Bob : I was still in high school . I was only making $1.25 gassing tele. ph. Co. cars . I bought the Rogue in the fall of 70 @ $ 1.80 hr. I was refering to the upper end. I got the Rogue for $1200.00 the 440 for $600.00 . I wasn't aware of the real world yet . :cool:

Re: Rambler All-American
 

A small section of the 1969 newspaper article,,,,,

April 17, 1969, The Evening Star

'Frost Action'

The name indicates an ice cold action, but this car is anything but cold.
What is it, but a hot drag racing car, owned by Putnam Valley resident
Scott Smith.

Not the car you would think, but a 1967 Rambler American. Yes, a
Rambler Drag Race Car. With all the hot cars rumbling the streets of
Northern Westchester, one not to tangle with is this white compact
box-styled car, which looks like your fathers company car.

Scott, who works as a Parts Manager for Geis Motors in Shrub Oak,
uses his car for a dual-purpose, Monday thru Friday to get to work, and
Sundays to legally drag race. Scott has been drag racing for 3 years,
and first started off with 1965 289 cubic inch Ford Mustang. But once he
started working for Geis Motors, owner William Geis Sr. suggested that
he really should own an American Motors product, since he was the Parts
Manager at Geis Motors here in Shrub Oak.

Scott was willing to sell his 'Pride and Joy' Mustang 4-speed, as long as
he could get a good deal on Ramblers top performance car. Mr. Geis
offered Scott a car at dealer cost, since he was a selected employee
as Parts Manager. What Scott found, was not your typical medium-bodied
big engine car, but a special limited production 1967 Rambler American
compact with a high-performance 343 engine..

Scott ordered the car with a 4-speed, and in a basic white color.
Scott stated, that when he got the car; 'it looked like some insurance
guys company car, really boring looking, but the fact is, this is a little car
with a big engine, and nobody knows it'.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

HM,

The AMC Dealership list,,,,,,,does not list all those early Rambler dealerships (pre-1969)

New York (Southern Region)
Geis Motors (Shrub Oak)
Mitchell Motors (Pleasantville)
K & K Motors (New York City)
Westbury Rambler (Westbury, Long Island)
Hicksville Rambler (Hicksville, Long Island)
Lazar's Auto Sales (Peekskill, New York)
Fred Fink Motors (Mahopac, New York)
Kelly's Motors (Vails Gate)

Just to name a few Southern New York Rambler Dealerships (pre-1970)

Connecticut
Stahl's Rambler (Derby)
Stratford Rambler (Stratford)

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Wasn't that a dealership called Wentworth selling cars from the north east some where, I remember seeing an old ad or maybe it was on that dealership list.

Yeah but it was still kind of neat to read though some of those old dealerships from back then...interesting.

Re: Rambler All-American
 

I went to Maryvale H.S in Phoenix, class of '78. A fellow classmate, a few years older than I, has a gold '67 343 (I think it's a Rogue but I could be wrong). He's had it since at least the mid 1970's. I went to an all year class reunion a few years ago and he was there. Still has the car and will apparently die with it. Sorry, don't remember his name.

I once had a Big Bad Orange '69 AMX. it was an original 390, T-10 4-speed (2.20 low) & 3.54 gears. Somebody placed a stock 343 in it. All stock with log exhaust manifolds and all. It was a no option car with manual steering. I took it to the track and was very impressed. Didn't hook well on the Radial T/A's but ran 96 MPH and 15.20's. I was very impressed with the MPH.

I also had a '68 AMX with the 290 / 220 HP 4bbl, 2.64 low T-10 & 3.54's. It was bone stock with 106K miles on it and I don't think it ever had a valve cover off. While I never took it to the track, I can say it was an impressive engine and had all the right trans and rear gearing. Not too many "little" small block cars would get rubber in 3rd! I've driven 289/225 cars, 273/235 & 283/220 cars. In bone stock as delivered condition I wouldn't give the mopar or ford a chance. The 283 would be a good race.

And while I've never owned a SC/Rambler (390 / 315), I went for a ride in a restored one with 4.10 gears in it. Holly molly, that car was fast!

Re: Rambler All-American
 

1969 Photo

Rambler by Stahls',,,,,,,E/Stock

No not Jere Stahl,,,,,,,,but Stahl's Rambler, Derby, Connecticut

http://www.doverdragstrip.com/phpBB3...le.php?id=5154

Re: Rambler All-American
 

Not to discount the 290/225 4-Barrel 'N' Code

In 1968,
the 67' Rambler American 290/225 4-Barrel car was classed in
J/S or J/SA (12.50- 12.99 Wt/Hp).

440 2-Door Sedan (#2817 lbs. ~ 225 HP = 12.52 Wt/Hp)

That was one-hell-of-a-competetive-class...........:eek:

1968 National Records;
J/S,,,,,,,,,,,,13.14 @ 105.50 MPH
J/SA,,,,,,,,,13.62 @ 102.43 MPH

Re: Rambler All-American
 

today it's at L or M....just enough that i gotta put a roll bar in....

Re: Rambler All-American
 

So was this the 'first' '67 American race car/team or was it someone else instead...trying to figure out who were some of the early race car teams with the 343 Typhoon motor, any help from the Rambler/AMC experts out there is appreciated.