Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Umm Dwight, that sounds like a perfectly good definition of Bracket Racing to me. Div. 2 just came out with some "optional classes" at points races, they're called 10.0,11.0 and 12.0.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

CanAm stock/superstock series in Ontario Canada. We race in cayuga, grand bend and now london and try and hit a few IHRA races but there is usually a problem with cash or schedual so I just hit the Grand Bend IHRA national event and thats it.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Thanks for the positive imput that isnt shown on here at all. Its a good entry level class that will attract possible local bracket racers to change their cars over to run, or attract a young up and comer to build and race a sportsman class without going broke looking for garbage castings.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Id much rather be hashing this out over a few cold ones in the garage :D

Like I said no internet wars...you have your opinion, I have mine and we will agree to dissagree.

Not sure where you are from but we are surrounded by stock car hillbillys that have used up all of our good castings and because of economical times in our "steel town" alot of good castings have been scaled at the wreckers in trade for a 12 pack of cheap beers. All of our wrecking yards are picked of anything 1978 and down...its very rare to see a 441 head...usually its a 336X. Every good set of castings in our yards are gone. I will admit i am a die hard stock eliminator fan....I have been on the hunts for cars and castings only to come up with rotten old junk...our best find was a 69-70 Impala (so smashed and rotten we needed to contact next of kin to tell us what it was) 350 300hp that was in this yard since 1971. Yank'd the heads and intake only to find the heads were so rotten the valves were part of the chamber. There was a q-jet onto of the intake that resembled whats in a box of powdered pancakes. This is what turned me off of "casting number" racing and got me into crate class. Vortec heads, any intake under the stock hood, 750 carb, stocker cam and it will run. And if you want to go 5 under the index no trick parts required...5+ and up buy the trick parts.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

There ain't no hotter bed of circle track racin than right here in Tennessee. They've used up the supplies around here, but you can still find stuff.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Well then there's three trains of thought.
1)Spend the money for a combo with all the "hard to find parts and castings".
2)Look in the guide for a combo that you can find/buy parts for.(For example I run an AMC,there's a ton of parts available if you want to search them out)
3)The description that Dwight used is the ultimate definition of a bracket race car.You can do that.After all we get reminded now and then that class racing isn't suited for everybody.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Soon it will only be 10.0,11.0 and 12.0 in Nhra, with no stock, as it way easier to police and the money is the same to them(NHRA).the car will only have to be safe to race,so it make tech fast and cheap to run with less people to run it.the fans will see some heads up race which is easier to understand.so it coming and we all will have to find something to do with our stockers.


now this is only my 2 cents.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Ed, I have to disagree with you on the statement that what I said is the "ultimate definition of a bracket race car". When I see bracket racing only, I see cars where the performance level of the car is little importance. It doesn't matter if you have a 700 cu.in. motor with two Dominators and a blower on N2O in an Opel Cadette body dialed in at 16 seconds as long as it passes safety requirements. Where you have a clearly defined set of engine specs, body modification specs, limitation on engine definition selection, defined performance expectations, and you are faced with the possibility of racing someone heads-up with no breakout, that is outside the definition of bracket racing.

Besides, I'm not a crusader for crate motor cars or classes. What I am concerned about is why all the vehement reaction to the idea? Any claim to retain the "purity" of Stock Eliminator loses its impact when you consider the liberties of replacement and aftermarket parts rampant throughout the tech bulletins and class guides. It's even more lost when you look at some of the modifications allowed and the inclusion of cars and engines that were never available in production outside the parts counter or special order forms. Even on old cars where we know what they were when they were purchased new, we allow transmissions, cylinder heads, rear ends, etc. etc. that didn't even exist when that car was produced. If the crate motors and cars they are installed in are governed by the same restrictions and the competition venue is the same, why is that such an unacceptable idea?

I personally like your #2 option.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Dwight, while we can't undo what has been done already, at least so long as NHRA is involved, a lot of us would like to see the changes stop, here and now. I'll tell you right now, I wouldn't be mad if they told us to put the TH 400 back in the car, the 163 intake back on, and the iron heads back on. If the rule applied to everyone, I'd be just fine with it.

No, we can't turn back the clock, but we can try to keep it from continuing. I'd just really rather not see Stock get further and further from the original intent and character of the class. It's obviously not doing anything to keep the car count from falling, never mind getting it to grow. If the changes continue, there'll be nothing left of the real Stock Eliminator. To me, that would be a tragedy.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Hi Dwight,the description in your post is more akin to abracket car than a traditional stocker.My three options would be the basis for keeping the work stock in Stock Elim.
The only enhacements from stock in my car are a fuel cell,two step and headers.Pretty much everything else is common to my car.And mine is one of the odd ball combos.
It's amusing that the early Fords can't use the alum center section,but BB chevies and Fords get aluminum heads.Two speed autos can use 3 speed autos now.I wont even go ito the DP and CJ cars.
I've been told by some old coot that a 50's or 60's GM car had a magnesium center section.Maybe the GM guys can wrangle that into their cars.
How's the "skunk works project" coming along?

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

When I said parts aren't easy to find for old combos, I meant it. The population of all 3 maritime provinces of canada (where i live) doesen't equal that of most single US cities. Therefore there never were as many castings and far fewer now. So if i find a set somewhere else and them have them shipped to me, At 50 or more pounds each, all of a sudden those old castings aren't cheap. Buying something new over the counter makes a difference. And good luck finding crack free 624 heads around here too. And no, moving isn't an option just to find castings or race. Thats why i started to build a CM car, I asked a simple question and some of you got your panties all up in a knot as if I want to kill stock eliminator.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

How about a motor that is already done?
Or a used motor that still has some life in it
If you want it to happen it will.....

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Chipper,I'm sure there's guys from your area who come down here to the States who can bring parts back to you.That would solve your rare for your area parts problem.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Couldnt agree with you more. Lets kill stock eliminator with our crate engines just like they killed modified production. Go burn some tires and books while we are at it...:rolleyes:

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

answers
1) found out quickly that there isnt any stock or superstock guy that sells a "good" combo. They squirrel everything away and sell the junk and advertise it as good.
2)I love AMC's but do I really need to answer why there are so many parts;)
3)Answers like this will kill stock eliminator for good. Wow racing NHRA stock is apparently like getting in the Union or being accepted into the Town Legion.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Now why cant everyone see it like you do. Yea look through the pits and take a glance at some of the combo's that never were. Never knew a monza, vega that ever came with a 12 bolt never mind swallow a 30x9 tire but thats a part of the game. I really think that most of these guys think that the crate deal has light HP rating and a shallow index when really we dont. Cars are the same as a traditional stocker, engines are built as a traditional stocker. Looks like a duck sounds like a duck its a duck.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

I never said for you to build an AMC.Just used the example of "different" combos available.
And I meant you could have stock castings brought up to you from the States for the
combos you can't get parts for up where you are.You have John Armstrong up there if you want to build a killer combo,otherwise I'm sure there's competent builders that can prep the parts for you to make your car a legal NHRA car.Or just keep your crate combo and run association races.We have choices in life.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

And I wasnt bashing your AMC combo like I said I do have a soft spot for those cars. Im just in shock at the hard headed guys who can't accept that this will eventually have to happen sooner or later. These guys are making it sound like there is still wrecking yards with 375hp 396 cars still out there. Ya ok...please tell me where. I know that there is alot of guys out there that have and are still collecting old parts but 5 out of 10 casting are butchered and are not usalble. A 350/295hp combo and a 350/330 hp crate combo built to stock eliminator spec will make the same HP on the dyno within 10hp....so whos at the disadvantage here? Without the NHRA factor worked into the equasion I have to carry 35hp more weight so whos going to be faster?

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

My reply to this thread is that we're only a few small steps,perpetrated by NHRA's
inability to control the runaway changes and lack of enforcement of rules,from having S/SS go away.The racers who kept pushing for changes and upgrades to equipment
and rules are hastening this process.
The addition of crate motors to the mix will only speed up the process.
I never raced Stock when Farmer was around,but I'd be willing to bet all this replacement
of parts bull$hit wouldn't fly if either he or someone like him was in charge of race operations.I've heard from lots of old timers that he was tough,but fair.
Finis.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Ed, your right about Farmer. No B.S. He was tough, not everybody liked him. I did. Strict is good.

I don't run Stock, so don't have a dog in this fight. But, why would anybody think crate motors are the coming thing in NHRA? Like they are the future? Seriously? I can see them getting rid of S/SS before adding more classes. :-)

I just can't imagine building something that could only run with one association, either one, then expect the other group to make classes for them. No logic there.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

All right, time to join in on the fun.........The point that my Crate Camaro friend is to being too kind to make its this. It is not 1970 any more! Hasn't been for 41 years now, so let it go, time marches on, and not even one of you with a numbers correct, factory original race version, 1 of 5, had to be on the "special" list (wink wink, nudge nudge) to get one, big block, 4 speed, light weight stocker can make the good old days come back! Thats why they are the "good old days" because they are gone. So lets deal with reality here then. The issue that has you "originals" all in knots on almost every other thread is the "death" of stock .......and I worry about that as well, but it is not because of new "bogus" combinations coming in. Stock is going to die because there are fewer new racers coming in than there are old ones going out. Plain and simple, if you are one of the fortunate few who have "been there and burried that index" racing an original equipment stocker, chances are you are worried about the end of your time on earth, and only think its the end of Stock Eliminator that has you awake late at night. Instead of ruling down from on high about what combination is in and whats out...you should be doing everything in your power to bring any and every new racer interested in taking on the challenge of Stock racing, to the track. In the end, when you get over your ego trip of running Class, you will understand that we are all just running a glorified bracket race, so get over yourself, put on both bulbs, and settle racing arguments where they belong.....on the track! Me and Crate Camaro, we will be waiting here in Ontario for anyone with the balls enough to risk having their $100 000 "real" stocker shown the gate by a crate motor car.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Don't hold your breath until you do it with NHRA.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

My point 100% "only race someone if they come race where I race, have to race NHRA, have to be in the club" I call Chicken **** BS.........if youre a racer, you race! if not you can go have a seat at the cruze night with the rest of the "used to be's" and tell everyone all about "real stock racing".

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Seeing how adding crate motor is going to save NHRA how is it that the NHRA races have a way larger turn out than the IHRA?
Shouldn't it be the other way around?
If you do not wish to find the parts to build a NHRA legal car that is your choice. No one is telling you to do it differently. Just leave the NHRA alone they do not need or want crate motor cars. Other than the $100,000 crate motors from Ford and Chrysler.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

y'all don't get enough sunshine up there or something. But what the hell else you gonna do when you live in a frozen tundra

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

You All, must have heat stroke that makes you speak the english language as if you were half retarded..........oh wait, Im sorry, Y'all are!

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

well if a 170 IQ is half retarded, I'm ok with that. We get to race year round, y'all get to post on the internet for half the year. You also live in Canada, a country that could be taken over by our Boy Scouts before lunch time.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Ok you know what that has absolutely nothing to do with this post. Thats the most rediculous thing I have ever herd and you should be ashamed of yourself for even saying that. Our country has done nothing but help you in all your bogus war BS so cut the attitude and grow up.

At the end of the day we are arguing for nothing...this isnt going to be a vote as to who allows what in the NHRA....they are going to make the desision and thats going to be it. If they allow the crate engine into NHRA then it will be a good deal for us IHRA racers to come and race NHRA and travel and stimulate this crap box economy. More racers make small towns more money for business...any any increase in business will make everyone happy.

Sitting here and talking about the 674 intake with 448 heads and "ohh you have to run the 132 carb that has a lower casting from Hungry because it was .0004 faster to the 330ft mark" is rediculous. Your saying its just as cheap to run an NHRA combo...so I take my 454 block down to the machine shop for a $200 dollar a hole sleeve job...1600 in the block? Thats afordable? Ohh ya dart is making a new 396 block thats accepted in stock right...LOL Dart block in stock....and your worried about a crate engine.

And im sick and tirer of hearing "ohh your stupid for building a combo that can only run one Sanction" I chose to build a crate combination because it was the easiest way to run mid to low 11's with minimum cash outlay.

Pretty sure some of you guys have forgot that Stock Eliminator is an entry level sportsman class...the stands empty to eat hotdogs when we are in the lanes and the cameras are off.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

first off your buddy made the disparaging comment about "you guys are half retarded", so go beat on him for lowering the bar.

Second off, the first thing I bolded is what class racing is all about. The second thing I bolded sounds like it came straight out of a bracket racer's mouth (not that there is anything wrong with that). About the third thing I bolded.........you have to look at NHRA national event sportsman class structure as two different ladders to the top. One one side, from bottom up, is super street, super gas, super comp, and top sportsman. These classes most often lead to the alcohol classes, pro mod, and the fuel classes (ala Shawn Langdon, the Force Girls, and others). The other side is stock, SS, and Comp. This side most often leads to Pro Stock at the top (stanfield, Brogdon, Kent, etc). Stock and SuperStreet would both be at the bottom rung on their respective sides, but the mindset is totally different on either side. Super Street is truly the entry level class here, and NHRA even states it. Class racing, on the other side is performance based and is about things like knowing the in's and out's of a motor, trans, etc and yes even things like that different carb base that's worth .004. If that's not what interests you, and you don't have the knack for it, maybe the other side of that "ladder" would be better for you.

I'm not trying to bash you, or suggest that you aren't cut out for class racing, but some of your own posts raise those questions. I'm also not saying that one side of the class structure is lesser than the other, or that they are mutually exclusive. There are lost of racers that excel at both. But they do require a different mentality and skill set. "going mid 11's for the least amount of money possible" doesn't sound like the class racer mentality. "going 1.00 under the index for the least amount possible" does, whether it be V/S, AF/S or A/SA

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

I had a long post all typed up and lost it,so I'll just condense it.If you two guys don't like using correct PN parts and doing weight and fuel check then just stay up where you bracket race and possibly association race where crates are allowed.The vast majority of us S/SS racers like doing stuff like having as close to factory parts and going through all the hoops required to race.Sure we're having problems with tech issues but we work as best we can.
Mr F Bomb,you sound like a real cocky SOB.Drive your what ever you drive down to Atco Raceway in NJ.There's a
few Jr dragster kids,if they were allowed to run regular
bracket cars,who would send you back to the frozen north with your F Bomb between your legs.
And Crate Camaro,"Our country has done nothing but help you in all your bogus war BS so cut the attitude and grow up."
Seems to me when the ***** hits the fan nobody gets on the telly with Ottawa.You know who they call.
And BTW the US kicked Canada's ***** already.Didn't you see it on South Park.And you can keep Terrence and Phillip.:>):>)

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

I don't know how you can argue with that. Good post Chad. Keep CM in IHRA. Lord knows we need the car count. I'm with ED on this too. The lack of parts in your area is no excuse for limiting yourself to one sanctioning body. I guess I just assumed that most CM cars are mostly bracket racers who run the IHRA races when they come in the area. I had no idea they actually wanted NHRA to change the rules for them. NHRA doesn't want older cars. Why would they give people a way to make them competitive again by adding whatever combination you want?

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

My, my, my, ain't you just cute? Such venom and vitriol, you bring so much to the conversation. At least, you think you do. There ain't no "we", there's us, and there's you. NHRA draws about 3 times the car count that IHRA does. Not that I'm any real fan of NHRA, nor do I have any dislike at all for IHRA. Tell us again how you crate motor boys are going to save our class. :rolleyes:

You know, as bad as you think you are, as much as you think you can prove to us, since obviously none of us has any reason to come up there, just call up your fellow Canadian, John Armstrong, and have him build you a real motor, so you can come on down and show us all your mad racing skills. If you're half as good as you think you are, you'll win enough to cover the cost of the motor in the first month you're here, after that, it's all profit. Just think, you can be fabulously wealthy, and show us all how it's done, too. After all, the rest of us don't have your skills, and don't know it's "just a glorified bracket race". :rolleyes:

Now, "Crate Camaro" and any number of others who like crate motors, I can at least have some measure of respect for, carry on a decent discussion with, and agree to disagree. You, on the other hand, well, you bring nothing to the discussion, you rank somewhere between "minor amusement", and "minor annoyance". The only reason to reply to your attempts to insult anyone are to watch you throw your little tantrums and lick the windows. I gotta think that somewhere in Canada, a village is missing its idiot. Keep the faith sunshine, you're just special, don't let anyone tell you different. :eek: :rolleyes:

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Dammit Alan, I just spit diet coke all over my keyboard.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Very good Alan. LMAO

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

thank you guys,
I new I could count on being able to wind you all up in 1 post or less. Crate Camaro, you owe me a beer (and thank god its a real Canadian one!). Thank you for reminding me how glad I am I live in a country where the default answer to any argument is NOT "god bless america". I will leave you with this last comforting thought......NHRA will never bring in Crate motor stockers just because IHRA started the class and we all know the mighty NHRA will never adopt a class started in the IHRA, right? I mean iits not like thats ever happened before.......just take Pro mod for example..........oh well never mind.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

If you want respect post with your real name not some bull crap. I have many friends in Canada over the years starting with Pete Fedun but they are all class guys. Where do you fit in ?

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

Pro Mod. Top Sportsman. Top Dragster. Top Stock.

As far as crate motors in NHRA, I'll use an analogy from Comp Eliminator. Over the past ten years, there have been many classes added to it (automatic classes, Nostalgia Dragster, Turbo classes, etc). People were even requestiong motorcycle classes and other nonsense. "I want a class made with this weight break...I want a class made with these rules....I want, I want, I want...". It seems that everytime NHRA would add classes to Comp, it would upset the apple cart and the new classes would beat up on everyone else.

Now, I'm not saying if Crates were added to NHRA, they'd take 18 of the top 20 qualifying spots. My point is, the general consensus of Comp racers is, "Build a car for a class--don't build a class for a car". NHRA doesn't need crate motor Stockers to be successful. If you want to run NHRA, build/buy a traditional Stocker. If you have a crate motor car and can not afford to build/buy a regular Stocker, there is still IHRA and many S/SS Associations (mine included) that allow IHRA cars.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

[QUOTE=Hagen Gary;248490] I guess I just assumed that most CM cars are mostly bracket racers who run the IHRA races when they come in the area.


I think that is a rediculous comment. I think if you look a little closer, you see there are many well built IHRA crate motor cars. There is alot of difference between the preparation for a nice class racing car than there is for a weekend bracket car. I don't agree with all the combinations of crate motors and rules that are out there, but if factored properly, there should be no problem running them as the basic premise is the same.

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Not going to play the name drop game. Cant wait to get home and make this a 100+ post thread. You guys are so lost and uninformed its crazy. Us crate motor guys have part numbers to follow just like you....i make reference to part numbers because thats your whole life...part numbers. I bet I could ask all of your wifes and or kids what part number intake you run on your stocker because they would definitly know from years of talking about different casting numbers and BS. You call me and my crate a bracket car when you are all so lost in the big picture that you actually have a bracket car as well...its a bracket race with a 30x9 tire and some rules. Give it up.

Wow all your ego's and must have really been hurt when NHRA moved all the index's up...heck what will you tell your grandchilden..."ohh grandpa's car used to go 1 under the index but now it can only go .7 under the index". No wonder kids are screwed up and turn to drugs and drive imports. You think the 14 year old kid in the stands watching you old clowns race knows what a max wedge car is? You think he can tell the difference between a 375hp camaro and a 330hp camaro? The only way he could tell is when his daddy says...hey see the one that wheelstands the farthest....thats one of those 330hp small block crate motors;)

Re: Crate Engines in NHRA?
 

My thoughts on this are pretty simple.

I like to look at a S/SS car and have an idea what engine combination might be in it
That's part of the allure and interest I have in those classes ...Always been that way.

Crate motors just don't do that for me. Too close to Bracket Two for a traditional guy like me. I feel the same way, to a lesser extent, about GT / Super Stock..... and definitely that way about Nascar.

As far as changing NHRA rules to accommodate your favorite car you drove back in high school...That's not the way it works in Stock Eliminator.

You build yourself a car that fits into the existing rules structure.
Seems simple enough to me...

How many you want?


http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/cto/2272813283.html


http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/cto/2250438196.html


http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/2284359294.html


http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/2212685293.html


Don't want to leave out the Blue Oval bunch:

Here you go. Runs P/SA or the bottom Pure Stock class in IHRA

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/ctd/2260965401.html