Re: Another Racer Killed at E-Town
Alan has pretty much summarized the variance in stopping the different vehicles and speeds that come into play. The bottom line on a 200+ mph pass is if the chutes don't deploy, blossom and stay attached to the car, you're going off the end hard. A brake failure in a 125 - 160 mph vehicle has a much different requirement to stop when leaving the pavement at the end. I remember going off the end at the old Pocono Drag Lodge in Pennsylvania and coming to a stop safely. The end of the shutdown area ran up the side of a mountain and was very effective for all types of vehicles. Granted the trap speeds were sub 250 mph but that was the most effective system I've seen. Unfortunately, it's not practical to retrofit an uphill runoff road to most existing facilities. The bottom line requirement lies with the sanctioning bodies. The only solution I could think of offhand would be a tailhook (aircraft carrier type) stopping reel at the very end for the faster cars. That's not as easy or simple as it sounds because the catch hook device would have to be standarized in the chassis construction and the cable reel device would require active operation by a track end crew. Car weight, speed, etc. would have to be taken into consideration to set the takeup reel drag. Existing runoffs would be maintained and used for slower vehicles (maybe 150mph and down) and the cable catch system activated for passes by the faster cars. Or unfortunately, a few deaths per year in a dangerous sport will be considered collateral damage. Time will tell. Heartfelt condolences to the family....
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E-town is not the only track with a short shutdown area. It just happens they've had a few incidents recently.
Be careful what you wish for with regards to eliminating race tracks. They get eliminated quickly enough as it is. |
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Well, if all else fails for Englishtown, there is 1/8 mile racing. I have a friend from the tri state area here and he owns a track in the Carolinas and he tried to push more for the 1/4 mile racing but after talking with the racers themselves -- they love the 1/8 mile racing. They claim the racing is just as competitive and is easier on the engines. And they do run some fast machinery . I just believe it would be a hard sell up here as people do not take easy to change. Just throwing it out there if it is a matter of survival both for the track and the racers.
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Re: Another Racer Killed at E-Town
At 250 mph and the chutes don't deploy how much more shut down area will be needed? Maybe the NHRA needs to asess the tracks with short shut down areas and go 1000 feet like TF and FC. I don't know if Englishtown has the room to extend their shut down area. I think that road on the high end prevents them from doing so.
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Re: Another Racer Killed at E-Town
Skydivers have backup chutes. How much trouble would it be to outfit these cars with additional, backup chutes? I also do not think it'd be hard to build more fire protection around the chute container either. I think some of the accidents that have happened may be caused by unconcious drivers. How about a system that automatically deploys past a certain point? I know the gentlemen that passed away at Commerce 2 years ago never lifted and even though the blower poped at the stripe, he still hit the trees hard enough to be thrown from the car.
I noticed several TAFC teams at Chicago letting kids pack the chutes on the cars. That just seems crazy. If I was driving one of these cars, I'd have to pack and inspect my own chutes. Rusty |
Re: Another Racer Killed at E-Town
A quick measurement using Google Earth shows E-Towns shutdown @ 2230' to the edge of the sand. Maple Grove is approx 2175' to Kachel Rd, then about 270'more across the road (2445 total). The real concern here is the "catch/containment systems" being used.
This was a case of a "runaway car" under full throttle w/no chutes or brakes, a longer shutdown in this case will allow the car to gain more momentum, another 4-500ft will not make a difference. The containment system at E-Town did just that.....the car stayed "contained" in the facility and didnt go into the trees, or onto Pension Rd. I think more research in the "catch systems" must be done to lessen the "hit" so drivers have a better chance to survive something like this. Just my opinion. |
Re: Another Racer Killed at E-Town
I don't think that this is an Englishtown problem,I don't think it is short at all. Personally I thought that the shutdown was as long or longer than most of the tracks I have raced at. I walked the shutdown area a year or 2 ago.
Looking at the news photo, I was very surprised that the racer died. The cage looked intact.they obviously clipped the top off to get him out. I believe the situation with Scott was differant in that he hit an obstacle in the shutdown area that is no longer there. We are racing and it can be dangerous. There are so many things that can happen that there is no way of insuring total safety for every situation. sad but reality. My thoughts and prayers to the family and friends |
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Just wondering if possibly Neal suffered a heart attack or some sort of consiousness loss to not pull his chute....maybe we'll find out, maybe not....Dave C., did you ever feel close to running out of real estate after a pass at Lebanon Valley?.....although shutdown is listed as 2600 feet, after seeing more than a few close calls there over the years, it always concerned me just a little.....WJ
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Is the second chute the back up? (Having 3 chutes open up at once may be damaging to the individual as well.) Wasn't there an alcohol car there last year that had both chutes fall off right after blossoming? How is that possible that two chutes fall off a car at the same exact time? Any math majors to tell us the odds? When nothing happens with the chutes or braking, it does make you think something had happened to the driver. |
Re: Another Racer Killed at E-Town
from what i was told at the track sunday ,the driver was actually killed when the supercharger was torn off by the second catch net and hit him in the head,the medical examiner will have to determine whether he in fact had a heart attack or other medical issue before he hit the catch nets, in any event my heart goes out to the family,
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Re: Another Racer Killed at E-Town
I really don't think we should be throwing E-Town under the bus and ready to write it off the schedule. I mean there are a few other National Event Tracks out there that are very short at the end (Pomona which has a Golf Course behind it's sand trap) but, even long shutdown tracks have issues. Last week at Chicago Burl Brown lost his chutes in his TA/FC and went into the sand and destroyed his car, A few years back good Friend Dan Pomponio had his chutes tangle in his brakes at Atlanta and he went through the safety fences destroying his car. The sad part about E-Town is there has been life lost at this track in the shutdown area so the black eye has been cast and the neighboring town already wants the track gone. I know the TA/FC guy in Atlanta a few years back died but, it was determined he had a massive heart attack while going down the track and he never lifted. I mean the only thing I can see them doing at E-Town if it would ever be allowed and I doubt it would be similar to what they did at Maple Grove. The Grove has the road that runs behind the track and the railroad crossing that come down when a car gets too the end. They expanded it last year and the run-off actually goes over the road so just wondering if they can do something since there is an open field next to Pension Road. I know Pension Road is a busy road but maybe bring in another by-pass road to cut down on some of the conjestion.
After watching the coverage from this weekend and what some TA/FC racers had to say I think NHRA should look at the cars first and some sort of "Kill Switch". On one of the sites they talked to Bob Tasca and he said this about TA/FC Two weeks ago Tasca sat in his old alcohol car and he shuddered at the thought he used to race to the quarter-mile with it. “I wouldn’t ever drive it again,” Tasca said. “I will tell you why. I would have to make so many changes – a three rail chassis, I won’t ever drive a car without one. Number two - auto shut off devices. They weren’t even invented when I raced in the alcohol classes. They have air parachutes, we didn’t even have those back then. If you have an air parachute and with two hands on the wheel, the parachute opens and hit the brake. As opposed to go on the steering wheel at 1,000 feet, hit the lever and then grab the brake. There are things in fuel racing today that make it safer than in an Alcohol Funny Car. “These cars [Alcohol Funny Cars] need to have the same technology as that on a nitro car,” Tasca said sternly. “They are harder to stop at 260 than I am at 300. They couldn’t run a fuel car at some of these divisional events and yet they run these alcohol cars. You guys talk about Leb Valley....have you been to the end of Cecil County...It amazes me they run Alky Cars there. Last but not least I did see this new thing they are coming out with for run-away aircraft at Laguardia Airport in New York which sits on the Hudson so not much run-off there if the plane overshoots the runway . It's like a Concrete type foam that when at any type of speed the foam compresses when the plane runs into it. It doesn't cause alot of damage and the foam can be replaced easily so maybe instead of water barrels have that at the end of tracks after the nets. |
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NHRA National Event Facility Shutdown lengths:
http://www.dragracingonline.com/agen...20-x_6-55.html |
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BSKG1198: There is no golf course at the end of the Pomona sandtrap. The golf course is on the other side of McKinley Ave and up the hill!
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Sorry Tony... A good friend took a picture a couple years back from the golf course and I could see the sand-trap from one of the holes.
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years ago when vinnie and richard napp were still alive they proposed closing off pension road during professional catagories,supposedly the town did not go along with the idea,why only god knows
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Call me crazy,but in the case of run away cars at high speed,why doesn't NHRA cosult the US Navy about a catch wire like used on aircraft carriers to stop planes weighing over 17K pounds in about 250" at speeds over 200 knots?A lot of fine details but maybe they could be overcome.The wire could be raised by someone at the end of the track when needed as can the tail hook when the situation arises.Slower cars wouldn't be affected by the system.Just a goof ball idea by a blathering idiot who doesn't want to see anyone else severely hurt or killed doing what we enjoy.
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Re: Another Racer Killed at E-Town
Possible downside to a carrier style catch wire is that it will be above the track surface at least an inch or so, which could put the racer airborne. Just a thought for consideration......
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Midway in Chicago is using the foam/concrete blocks at the end of the runway. They were installed after the plane overshot the runway, broke throug the fence, drove out onto a city street and killed a boy in a car on 55th Street which runs along the perimeter.
If they can stop a runaway airplane, and if the weight to crush equations could be worked out right (obviously a race car doesn't weigh as much as an airplane nor distributes it's weight the same way), this might be a viable solution. Obviously what some tracks are doing isn't working as planned. It's an unfortunate and costly game of trial and error. |
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some sort of devise to elevate it up to the paved height when needed.Of course every fast car,TAD/TAFC/TFD/AAFC would need a remote activated tail hook.Sounds a bit far fetched but I wish they would come up with something. I personally think they'll take the easy way out and just mandate a slowing down of the cars. |
Re: Another Racer Killed at E-Town
You can't back up the track at Englishtown because you'll run into the overhead tower and the sound barrier concrete wall. You can't extend the trap more than 20ft without hitting Pension Rd.
What could be done, though I don't know how well it would work, would be to construct a 45-degree left turn with enough banking to guide a car that gets past everything else onto the field that runs parallel to Pension Rd. That would give a few hundred more feet stopping room. Englishtown top end: http://www.bing.com/maps/default.asp...shtown%2C%20NJ |
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I was wondering why the chute just fell off of the one car and the roll cage was completely "broken" off the other car?
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I'm pretty sure they cut the cage off of the top of Neil Parker's car. That is standard operating procedure for removing an injured person from a wrecked race car. It's actually SOP for removing injured persons from most any wrecked car. The first concern for emergency personnel is to get the injured person out without causing further injury. If you take them out the top, you can do a better job of keeping the spine aligned. If you have to turn them and lay them over, odds are if there is a spinal injury, you'll make it worse. It is interesting to note that the car that crashed last year lost its chutes, and reportedly lost its brakes, yet it went through both nets, but the second net was still holding the car somewhat, and the tire barrier stopped it. In the crash this year, the car evidently, from the photos, went through the tire barrier, and was a good distance past the tire barrier. It would appear that this year's crash was at a much higher speed. |
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I believe, in the Alexis Dejoria accident in 2009, when the 'chutes ripped off, they tore the brake lines too.
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Re: Another Racer Killed at E-Town
It probably is time, and a good idea, for NHRA to look at taking some power away from the fuel cars, as they've far exceeded the design parameters of the tracks, and some of the parts they're using. Some of the older, more experienced crew chiefs have been saying that quietly for years.
If they simply took 50 cubic inches away, limited compression, and restricted blower speed, they could take 1000HP or more easily. For the cost of new pistons, new cranks, and new blower pulleys. The result would be the ability to return to 1/4 mile racing, less expense for the teams, and less time and money wasted on oil downs and fires. The use of tailhook arrester gear on race cars probably isn't too practical. An entire new structure would be required for the back of the cars, requiring a whole new level of engineering. And it should be noted that these cars are not designed to be pulled or stretched, it might be necessary to redesign the whole frame to withstand the forces acting on them from stopping them abruptly by hooking the back of the car. Otherwise, it rips the back of the car off, and then catapults it further down track. Pulling cars apart is not a good idea. Further, even the best carrier pilots jump the wire, so there's no sure way to make sure the cars catch the wire, if the car doesn't catch the wire, the system is useless. Perhaps a better idea is to use the braking technology from arrester gear on an improved catch net. The cars are designed to protect the driver from a front end crash, so the net shouldn't require massive changes to the cars. A stronger net, designed to actually capture the car, coupled to a braking system might do the trick. It's not going to tear the cars up any worse than the current system, either. A longer sand/gravel pit, starting sooner, might be another improvement. Starting the pit earlier, and making the entrance less aggressive, might help stop the cars from skipping over it, as well as giving them more time to slow down gradually. It would also stop the slower cars less abruptly, with less damage and less chance of serious injury. It would allow an extra net or two as well. If we had two regular nets, possibly somewhat stronger, and better mounted, that would slow the cars more gradually, and stop some cars completely. Then, with a third net, with arrester gear style braking, as a final fail safe, you have a system for the fastest runaway cars. |
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Alan.....50 cubic inches isnt enough. Cut all of the fuel, and alcohol cars back to 400 inches. Back in the stone age they used 392 and 426 Hemis in nTop FOOL. . Why not now. Cut the blower size and over drive, fuel pumps and mags. They wont do it though. Slower in in the spectator eyes as the way to go.
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Terry, if you cut the blower speed way back, they only have to buy pulleys, not blowers. If you cut blower size, then you have to keep cutting speed.
If you cut compression, 50 cubic inches will be enough. If you don't cut compression, 100 cubic inches won't be enough. If you make the changes easier and less expensive, it gives the teams a greater incentive to not just accept the changes, but to embrace them. If you let them keep the same blower size, they don't need entirely new blowers, that keeps the cost down. It's a lot cheaper and easier to control it with pulleys. The most it requires then is belts and pulleys, as opposed to entirely new blower cases and manifolds. If you take 50 cubic inches and compression ratio away, you can just change pistons and crankshafts, those are expendable anyway. Just take a 1/2" of stroke, and cut the compression ratio. Considering how much nitro loves stroke and compression, that will kill a lot of power. They'd be better off not to cut mags, it'll help keep them lit, they hydraulic and explode when they're not lit. When you take displacement, compression, and blower speed, they'll slow down the fuel pumps themselves. |
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If I remember correctly the last two T/F records set in 1/4 mile were at two of the shortest tracks (Columbus & Pomona) and it was done safely. Just make sure the damn chutes work. It's easy people, if the chutes don't work it doesn't matter HP or lenghth of the track.
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Re: Another Racer Killed at E-Town
Everyone here, please go back and read post # 56 of this thread....Especially, the comments by the E-town event-winning TFC driver, Bob Tasca. They seem to make good sense...roughly only 40mph trap speed difference between the alcohol funny cars and the nitro funny cars....both should have IDENTICAL safety features.WJ
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Humans make errors, they always have, they always will. If they did not, engines would never blow up, and race cars would never crash. There would be no need for safety devices. |
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I understand that over twenty parachutes FAILED the test!!! |
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Maybe we need some fast R&D on chutes and deployment methods.Remote doployment by someone past the finishline wouldn't be a bad idea also.
I remember the old jet cars,Green Mamba?Green Monster,years ago.They were heavy and had massive chutes to stop them.They did have malfunctions now and then though. Maybe concentrating on launch methods might help. |
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