Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Mike what are you referring to here?

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

i think the reason allen patterson got his motor inspected and sealed was his class record was open
and his qualifing times gave him the back up needed to get the record even though he got beat in the final.
atleast that is what it looks like from the internet reports and i,m not there so its just a quess on my part.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

You can't set a record at a national event.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

No records or back ups are set at Nationals Events for Sportsman LODRS only or National Opens.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

OK easy everyone they didn't just decipher the dead sea scrolls, after talking directly with someone closely involved in this it seems to be nothing more than one hand of Ford not knowing what the other hand was doing. I'll leave it to someone else to fully explain but hey they could probably stack 2 head gaskets and go just as fast. Please try to wait till the full story comes out on this before labeling these guys, doubt they would bring something that was obviously illegal to a race with a 99% chance of tear down. Joe

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

442OLDS
You have a pm.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

sorry abought the misinformation i was not aware you couldnt set a record at a national event.
i never been quick enough to have to worry abought it but atleast it sounded good in therory
now you all also know why i wasnt there just not fast enough have a nice day

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

I spoke with a couple of the CJ guys that actually know these pretty well. Ford submitted a production tolerance average instead of a minimum spec. I guess the guy that submitted the info was there and they were taking turns beating him LOL. I am sure the memo to correct this was already drafted. I also don't think the guys could have even reassembled the engines without some help. There are some tools that make the impossible possible. Maybe Ford will come out with a CJ teardown kit!

I don't see this piston dish spec or any other as any real issue. Ford will submit it and NHRA will accept it. These are really cool cars and they guys that I talked to Jimmy Ronzello and George Wright are nice guys and dedicated racers. I don't agree with the hp factor and class they are in, but I can't blame those guys for that.


I think the guy that got "jobbed" in teardown for stock was Tim Bishop. They couldn't read the entire number on his piston. He pulled a piston and rod. It weighed right, measured right and looked right. I would agree this would be something that should be reviewed, but that is what the big guy is there for at Indy right? I would have thought if a couple of senior tech guys said it was right, but they can't verify the # but it was clearly legal, the Head NHRA tech official would be able to make a call that would make sense. I guess he only flies out from California to eat the catered food and sit in the tower.

I didn't hang out in teardown, but I did talk to a couple of SS guys. One had a set of Manley rods that were not marked and was tossed and one he a chunk of epoxy that fell out and as luck would have it, that was the runner they checked!

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Being a Ford mechanic, these DOHC supercharged motors are definately no fun to take apart, and likely something you are not going to have time to pull down between rounds.

You don't NEED special tools to time these, but it does make life a LOT easier.

Getting a head off a 4.6 SOHC in chassis is not a real fun task, I can't imagine a 32v motor in that chassis. Only 32v motors I've torn apart have either been in a Navigator, or on a stand.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Those things make my Firebird look easy. I don't envy them. I pulled the engine this weekend to replace the valve springs.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

yeah, on top all right-and-shoved so far back under the windshield I don't know how guys work on them either!! cooool cars though..................

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

The cam gears on these engines are not keyed, so you have to use a set of special locks to position the 4 camshafts and the crankshaft and them you torque the canshaft sprockets on, the camshat and sprockets are a tappered fit. OTC makes a master kit thats does most Fords but the DOHC need another kit that is also by OTC around $300.
Chris

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

The whole situation with Tim Bishop is probably the worst that I've seen in years. NHRA did not do the right thing here. There was nothing wrong with his pistons and this engine was built by one of the most respected engine builders in Stock Eliminator.

What really amazes me is the fact that CP pistons and NHRA are suppose to be on the same page and working in concert together in this world of Stock Eliminator that we live in. Both parties are suppose to know what the other one is doing and wants, but it's 180 degrees the other way! Chaos! No communication skills at all, that's for sure!

When you're dealing with the expenses in getting to Indy, and all it takes to maintain a race car, there is no excuse for what happened here. T. Bishop should be given the class win in this situation. This issue is between CP and NHRA. Not the racer who was legal in all parameters of his engine.

Jerry

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Jerry, I think that it's terrible what has happened to Tim. I brought this issue (part #s) to techs attention over a year ago. If a piston, pin, rod assy looks and weighs correctly then what difference does it make what part number is on it. I was told they needed a part # for "reference" purposes. As bad as what happened to Tim is I still feel what happened to Don Himes at Indy a few years ago is worse. He won class and was tossed out of the barn because his heads looked "too stock". That is the direct quote.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Guess you don't sand the tops of those to equalize the deck! About all you could do is cull through rods for slightly different lengths (not real likely with aftermarket rods) and/or re-size some to shorten them. What a pain if your somewhat anal and like everything dead-nuts. Makes SS engines look easier.

Bite me, Short Bob.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Mike, so it is my understanding that your team's attention to detail is also "illegal?" After all, your engine was once found to be "not correct to specification."

Guess what? These things happen and most of the time nobody ever hears about it. I don't recall seeing a post for you guys, "Voth OUT at KC!!!" The story about Ford sending in the wrong spec is entirely possible and this (small) issue will be resolved, just like most other tech violations.

And in the interest of fair reporting, would you (and many others here) be making such a big deal out of this if it was a supercharged LS7 Camaro or Corvette that got tossed for the same violation?

Just saying.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Jerry, I think it is noteworthy. The cars were definately stock. They were definately illegal,(because of a clerical error) and come Tuesday, they will be legal again. I don't think they are getting picked on. If NHRA didn't pick any CJs it would have been a bigger story.I was surprised they didn't pick any Mopars, but that could have been because Johns broke and Big didn't qualify (who knows) If there were any GM factory products made and flying, I would hope also that they would be torn down. I hope that the success of the Ford Program and hopefully Mopars are seen as proof that involvement in Motorsports is worthy of their marketing budget again. The CJ guys don't need any real defense. They are racers with some bad a** cars! There is a guy that brought one to Cordova and he was leaving low like a street car, granny shifting thr stock 6 speed and went 10.70's. He and his boy were having a blast. I don't think they had to turn a wrench on this car. I bet you spent some time in the garage on yours. Speaking of that, where are you Jerry? You should be at some Heartland races or Divisionals at Cordova or TriState! You coming to Earlville? Rob Turkal won the Sunday Stock Superstock meet there yesterday in his I stick car.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Jason Line got a year way back for a illegal piston. Will these guys get a year?

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Good points, but a little "outdated" We checked our heads, and they checked correct. Layer checked them and they also checked correct. We didn't check them prior to assembly, but again, would have checked ok anyway with our equipment. You didnt' see a post named voth out at kc, but I did create a thread on the subject right after it happen, so you might want to research your topic before you start stating things that are inaccurate. The ford issue will be resolved soon, no doubt, but the fact that it happened is just funny to me. I doubt it would happen with GM. I expect this sort of thing from a lesser car manufacturer. It's no secret I dislike fords, or the fact that their racing products have been inferior to GM for many years. Ratio of GM to ford at the track speaks for itself. But in the interest of being fair, it wouldn't suprise me if someone made note of a similar violation, if occured in the GM camp. I just don't think that GM would make a mistake like that. Even though this "small" issue will be resolved, it's the fact that it occured in the first place.

And, seriously, rules are rules, and even though it doesn't make a difference overall, NHRA made the right call, as they did with us in KC last fall. We corrected ours, they will correct the CJ's paperwork, and we'll all move on like we always do.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

W: 595 Chad Holzman, Wichita, Kan. ('08 Cobra Jet/331) .094 10.047 133.21
L: 5251 Tim Nicholson, Concordia, Kan. ('08 Cobra Jet/331) DQ-Tech

Phil Daly

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Mr. Nees may I send you a PM?

Phil Daly

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

What is the big deal ,I thought Chad Holzman won as/a and he passed tech.Get accustom to these results because you have not seen nothing yet because the new 2010 cobra jet will have the new 2.9 whipple supercharger.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

We're still working on getting the car back together...but a few of those Heartland races are definitely on the horizon! Maybe a G-Force 5-speed too; shifting only 3 times doesn't seem as much fun anymore. ;)

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

I guess you can but beware of guilt by association!

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Man thats a lot of work to change some springs! I changed mine on the car on my '97 and it was not to difficult but they were stocker springs.......If I had SS type springs it would be a lot tougher but I'd find or make a tool to remove them before I pulled the engine.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Somebody named "Voth" posted, about Fords, "their racing products have been inferior to GM for many years."

Perhaps you don't remember that when the Pro Stock program (rules) got changed to "all run 500 CID", it was partially because NHRA had grown weary of constantly adding weight to the 351 Cleveland engine during the preceding years, when Pro Stocks were run on a pounds-per cubic inch basis. Before the changeover to 500 cubic inches for everybody occurred, 351 Cleveland engines were required to carry more pounds per cubic inch that any other Pro Stock engine.

During the 1970's, the unprecedented rule that required "Cleveland" engines to carry an EXTRA HALF-POUND PER CUBIC INCH, over and above any other V-8 engine in Modified Eliminator was introduced!

Those canted-valve 351's from Ford had dominated Modfifed Eliminator racing so completely, in the classes they were eligible for, that NHRA added weight to them so the Chevys would have a chance against them. I don't remember how many years that rule was in effect, but there it was...

Maybe you don't remember that, but it happened.

Does that sound like a company whose racing products were "inferior to GM???"

No apologist for Ford, I'm a MoPar guy.... but, facts is facts.

I'll bet Terry remembers it... or, Travis...

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Sounds good Jerry. send me your e mail address to me at jimschaechter@earthlink.net and I will make sure you get the schedule. Jim

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

What Mr. Voth also doesn't know is that NHRA and NASCAR both added so much weight to the Hemi as to make it totally uncompetitive during the pro stock days because chevy was no longer competitive in the class as with NASCAR. Same with Trans Am setting a 302 cubic inch limit knowing that Mopar was the only manufacturer that DIDN'T make an engine that small.

Today, almost all types of racing today are set up for chevy to have the advantage, Ford has taken the challenge and is doing well, MOPAR no longer has the budget to fight the good fight and Pontiac did well on it's own engines for a while.

JimR

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

While I may be a Ford fan I wish no ill will on GM or Mopar. Competition is what is great for the sport. One may be dominant for a time but soon the others will catch up.

The bickering going on is good for no one. Following the rules and taking it to the track is the best thing to do. Let's see them all race.

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Thank you for the history lesson, gentlemen. Apparently, we have taken a detour from sportsman racing. To clarify, I was referring to the fact that the vast majority of SS cars out there are GM products. Even many ford bodied SG cars have GM powerplants. More specifically, if it were more cost effective, and "easier" to work on a ford, more people would be doing it. As far as NASCAR and PS are concerned, they don't interest me one bit, but I am still well aware of fords past dominance (or current in NASCAR). Didn't mean to lead anyone off topic. :)

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Mr. Voth, if you have a Jerico in that Monte Carlo, I hope you are aware of what "inferior" OE 4 speed trans it is based on. I also hope that you didn`t sully your car with one of those horrid Ford 9" rearends, either!:D

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Touche'!! :)

Re: CJ OUT at Indy!!
 

Rich, I have a two post lift at home, and it takes me about 45 minutes to drop it out, or lift the car off the engine and K member. With over 900 lbs open, I'm not strong enough to pull them down without a cheater on the Jessel tool. It won't fit under the cowel. By the time I was done, I was glad it doesn't have 9 cyls.