Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Guys It is quite simple do your homework like Bob has done follow through with an untried combo willing to take the disappointment if it doesn't go 2 seconds under and race. I made the statement at Gainesville divisional race I believed I saw more 69 camaros running in stock than GM produced in 1969. Neil Smedley and myself talked about that Shaw combo before Shaw brought it out. There are a couple more combo's out there better than the caddy. Just do not feel like building one....Realize that if Bob had to run off current national record he would only be 7tenths under...7tenths under current index would not get you into Indy.....

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

If that's the case then if Tech can verify that the car is that heavy without ballast then I dont see a problem with an exclusion for that combo.I dont think many cars fit into that scenario.That would also be a good time to try and put a more realistic HP # on that combo.

Ed F.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Billy.... I think your ideas are good, but it aeems like we are trying to solve all the problems at once...

1) No-HP or factoring til the engine has passed teardown... No- exceptions !!!!!!

2) Forget about factored tracks ... You will never win that one...

3) Let's try and change the things we can , stop worrying about the 3-4 single car
combo's.... You are always going to have those problems....

4) I think Yac's idea about 4 times a year review is a good idea...

5) This might be the time to look at combining stick / auto's at one or two opens
and see how it works...?

6) Terry 's idea of lowering the index is also a good one ... I thought that was
already voted on, how come it never happened ....?

* I am sure there will be many ideas, maybe our reps can chime in if they still
have a Job... ?

We have to start somewhere, who knows in a couple of years it might work... Take little steps first , then improve as you go.... We do need a good shot in the arm in our sport, or we won't have to worry about racing at all .......

Last but not least, make sure we all support our Regional Sportsman Racing Groups,
they are our best option for the FUTURE.......... Just something to think about ?

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

What does lowering the index have to do with anything? If you lower all the indexes by ONE SECOND, then the -1.40 under cars are still .040 faster than the -1.00 under cars. If you don't change the 1.15/1.40 triggers then all you've done is guaranteed that no car will ever be re-factored. If you *do* change the triggers by the same amount, then you haven't really changed anything. It's a barometer. The calibration is irrelevant.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

[QUOTE=Billy Nees;111654]OK everybody, The -1.40 trigger is taking too long to catch up to all of the "soft" combos out there! Any suggestions? OBTW we're talking Stock and SS![/QUO

Ya, Dont work on your stuff, Sell it and build something you think you know is a soft combo and
TRY to make it go fast!!

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

B Aceves, Ya know? It never dawned on me till you put it to me that way! I'm a stupid, lazy, no good slacker! I'm so depressed I think that I'll apply for a job as a Tech Inspector. Or maybe I'll just shoot myself.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

BTW, anybody that thinks I'm singleing out Bob should read my thread; It's a mystery to me.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

BILLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! Go to your room. You're not allowed to have a real job. Working on other peoples racecars is just a hobby.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

[QUOTE=B Aceves;111857] You obviously dont know or have seen Billy at the track.Nobody works on his car,and others,more than him.I went with him to Gainesville (980 miles) so he could make a cam change and present a set of heads
to tech for inspection.I've seen him change carbs,move the cam and other misc. things,and that's between qualifying runs.He probably works harder at one race than you have in your racing career,if you race at all
He comes on here and makes observations and makes suggestions neither with any hidden agendas,unlike some on this site.
And he would never build a soft combo,that's too easy.



Ed F.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Just a new trigger by itself will not solve anything. The AHFS needs a complete rebuild, it is fundamentally flawed, in at least a 1/2 dozen ways.

One other thing. There is now not enough incentive to go fast in Stock or Super Stock to make the AHFS really effective, even if NHRA were to be even remotely interested in fixing it.

And they are not at all interested in fixing it, if they were, they'd have taken the suggestions made by the SRAC and done it by now. Not to mention the fact they took it from people who really know the classes and put Glendora in charge.

With the new cars and their bogus factors backed by factory money, NHRA now has a vested interest in the AHFS not working.

It's a shame, ain't it? That Stock class eliminations at Houston was canceled so the Pro Mod dog and pony act could have two time trials says all you need to know about where Stock and Super Stock rank with NHRA.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Alan, why is it that for 50 years the only "incentive" that a Stock and then Superstock racer needed was the want to go faster or have the fastest (fill in the blank) in the country and now there's not? Well I've been told that the people have changed and now the sport has to change to accommodate them. I'm not going to go into how they've changed as I think everybody on this board already knows my opinions but I think that you'll agree that they aren't going to change back so stop with the incentive crap. A "bracket racer" is only going to go as fast as he needs to. A "buy it all" racer is going to go as fast as he can afford to go and that leaves a hand full of us that are left to go fast with our minds or what is left of them. The only question I threw out is the instant trigger question. We've got a whole slew of new way underrated combos coming and I don't think that it is reasonable to wait 10 or 15 years for them to get sorted out! Don't you agree? Now instead of spouting your crap why can't you just give me your opinion on how to fix the instant trigger? It's the only thing that I asked about and I know that you are smart enough to add some useful input.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Maybe if the instant trigger (after tear down) was 1.00 under the index with a 10% increase (hammer them)instead of the current percentage that takes 10 years to put the combo where it belongs most of the under rated and "TRICK" (bogus and expensive) engines would go away or move into S/S where they belong. .Not to worry.....it will never happen with NHRA.
P.S. After thinking about this for a little while maybe the trigger figure should be lowered to about .75 or .80 under the index as long as they stay at thier current level. If they are lowered then reduce the amount under as a trigger. Whats the point in having the entire field of some races being over one under and the bump spot someplace around .98 under. Thats just nuts. If the AA or A combos get factored out of Stock where they carry enough legal weight then they belong in S/S anyway. The cost of thes "GO FAST" engines is to the point of insanity. And when I say after a "tear down" I mean a very intense inspection. Crank, piston & rod weights, HEADS (NO hidden port work), all of it with NO interfearence from the ivory tower when some of the very good tech people find a problem. Do this at ALL of the races. National events, points races, Opens, and NO seperate adjustment for altitude tracks. My 2 cents but NHRA wont do it anyway.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Billy, I think Alan has good points.
When there were 10 good motors in the 50s to race , racers were clumped together and the natural reward was the fastest(------) in the country.Sponsors loved it fans loved it and NHRA loved and USED it.
With 50 years worth of new combinations being created the sport has changed.
Business plan has changed due to the years and the numbers of combinations. The NHRA adopted a plan of accepting EVERY motor, Every chassis and even allowed GT which multiplied the places to fit your dream combination. RESULT:1) Every person who would build to the rule book any car out there can come and PAY entry somewhere.
Result 2) Statistically fewer cars per class and especially across the nation. Naturally harder to be the fastest (_____) in the country or OHIO or anywhere if only yours exists.
Result 3) NHRA cannot fit the large numbers of cars in a location for Class racing of 150 cars and find 100 class winners without a race of cars in a class. Hard on Sponsors, no spectator appeal and time consuming without value to anyone but the participant who gets to bring his comboand make a bye run for a trophy.
Result4) Being the most under the index becomes some peoples goals even if not racing anyone becomes a goal-- More bogus combos appear to stroke the egos of people who desire that result and NHRA provides the opening by not caring about the factor.Their goals are met, Someone pays to ENTER somewhere even if "racing " has been limited to bracket style eliminator.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

In other words....Stock and S/S racing has become "WATERED DOWN".

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

This is a very interesting and engaging topic. I find it even more interesting, since most of the ones debating this, have won open,divisional, and national races, likely within both major organizations. On top of that many have or do currently hold national records within said organizations. And many of you have no doubt built numerous cars, both for yourselves and others. I respect your thoughts and opinions.

Now what about the rest of us. My concern, if you kick the indexes by .5 to 1 second. I can live with that, it's going to make those of us starting with new combos, have a more difficult road to getting a car to a "competitive" level. My definition of competitive is getting the car to run the index or a little below. Once that barrier is breached, your real work begins. I am going to approach it from a "bracket racer" mentality. The index gives me that option.

When the index system was born in the 70's. That was it's purpose. To allow us to build cars. How many on here were part of the old system? I well remember how, when we ran off the national records, how much you had to work on a car to get it to run. Having the ability to set a record, wasn't something you took lightly. Back then I was young and didn't have the drive to do it, myself. I worked with a couple of people that did and we worked alot!

The flip side of the old system. Some combinations of cars, just couldn't run, period. Or, you might have a good car in your part of the country, some guy 1000 miles away, gets a couple solid runs in really good air, kills the record. All you have is either A) an expensive, restrictive bracket car or B) a really nice pile of junk that you can't race anymore. The system at present, may be imperfect but I don't see an alternative.

You either punish individual combinations, which could mean seperating cars. One person could run the combo and someone that makes it go faster gets the HP hit. Or, you enact a system that punishes the combination and we're back to the old system. Many cars, probably will get parked.

I realise, no real answers, just my thoughts on the subject. As many on here have stated, Stock and Super Stock are not for everyone.

Robert Swartz

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

When you talk about years ago. You sound like there were no "oddball" combos out there in stock. For one I remember the Hudson Hornets. And I'm sure there were others that wouldn't meet your "pedigree" of a race car. That was before my time. In my time I've seen 4 cylinder Pintos, and 6 cylinder Mavericks FLY. They were not destined to be race cars from the factory. Someone saw the specs and figured it would work.
If you want "cookie cutter" cars go race the .90 classes, or prostock. Leave stock alone.
There will always be soft combo's. But anyone who wants to can go out and build them. But it's a whole lot easier to cry about them than to build them.
Back to Billy's original post. No mater what the number guys will sandbag it. The CIC race at BelleRose was a perfect example of it. If they went back and paid something, had more class win money, and put your picture in dragster it would give people the incentive to go a little bit faster. And then the competitiveness would kick in.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

1st of all... BOB SHAW ROCKS !

with that said...

once again for the umpteenth time since its first unleashing...
the Automatic Help For Slugs (AHFS) cannot and will not EVER work

no automatic bull**** will ever work... ppssstt..."hey nhra, we can manipulate the numbers"

here is my opinion... of course ive been preaching all this (no one listens to me) for years

establish a HP committee of real people (travis, wesley, lang, bruce, maybe provoast or retired racers)
all runs count
knock -.50 off these stupid easy indexes
anyone goes -.75 under review 4 times per season
anyone goes -1.00 immediate review by committee for ANY deemed adjustment
all new additions to class guide goes through one of 4 committee meetings

captain jack

kinda like when farmer rerated you in the tech line, after winning last weeks race... just WHACK

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

This is the best and most sensable post that I have read yet ! Way to go Jack.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

[QUOTE] establish a HP committee of real people (travis, wesley, lang, bruce, maybe provoast or retired racers)
all runs count
knock -.50 off these stupid easy indexes
anyone goes -.75 under review 4 times per season
anyone goes -1.00 immediate review by committee for ANY deemed adjustment
all new additions to class guide goes through one of 4 committee meetings

captain jack

kinda like when farmer rerated you in the tech line, after winning last weeks race... just WHACK [QUOTE]

Sounds good to me.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

I don't know if he would be interested,but Nitro Joe probably has a pretty good idea where the horsepower factors "should" be.I thought his end of year stats were excellent.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

ART, Why do you think this topic keeps coming up if MANY people arent concerned about it. There are group of people who want to race someone and a group who need to search the fine print and build a "Critter" that NHRA could care less about because it is a "one of a kind". NHRA will never bother fine tuning the factoring. It will always be a last resort deal.Poorly thought out and done for attendance reasons. Thus the low hp NEW cars which always will exist.
I have no concern which cars are allowed to race. I have always jokingly said if Green Station wagons was the class and there were 50 in the US to race and be proud of their performance then so be it.
I ran several classes where None of us could be #1 Qualifier due to the factoring on our combination but when you run class with that class and beat 19 cars for the trophy it MEANS something to ANYONE who cares about Stk or SS racing.
If you tell me you ran 2.00 under in a one of a kind car and the temptation is to ask " so What?" Does that mean the index is soft? the car is wrong? The factor is off ? If you said you BEAT twenty cars and you are the faster at the same track that is accomplishment. A Weak Factor is a Weak factor regardless of what car it applies to and hurts the whole playing field and racing group the same.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Dick you really don't get it. Stock "ain't what it used to be in the popular classes. If racer A spends $50,000 then racer B spends $60,000. Now racer G decides to spend $75,000 Where do all the others in the alphabet fit in. If you think your knowlege and expertise can take the place of cubic dollars. I think you are sadly mistaken. These "obscure" classes allow someone to compete without cubic dollars.
You are old enough to remember when Ritchie Zul, Frank Iaconio, Paul Blevins, Etc Built their own cars and were competitive. Do you think a backyard project could even qualify in prostock now????
Diversity keeps the cost down in stock and superstock. How many superstock racers can afford to compete in SS/AH? There is a lot of prestige to run that class. But there are only a certain amount of racers that can afford it. Look in the comp ranks. Do you see a lot of 4 and 6 cylinder cars. The answer is yes.
You constantly beat the "to many classes drum". Race what ever you want and stop trying to dictate your policy on everyone else. You have three .90 classes where the playing field is level. That is enough.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Art, Good points about Cost. Much of that is the legalizing of so many things which were not even debated in the "Old Days" Cranks were Stock or teched that way. Heads were Stock or ..... I guess cost will never be contained in a class structure without tech . The high cost of AH is a wonderful example. The rules change at political pressure instead of technical pressure. Result new higher cost rebuilds. Problem is it is falling over into the other classes now. It probably self destruct due to constant rule changes and bending.
Could you support a "new " stock level class? Sealed motors? Spec motors etc to cut cost and level the fields. Do you value racing someone without the use of a breakout to make up for differences?

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Dick. You can never go back. Look at the "fire storm" on here about the runner volumes. I agree with you about the rules being changed to allow more and more stuff. But that ain't going to change.
To keep people from spending more money than the next guy. The only thing that would work would be claimer races. And who would build a car, knowing that someone could come over and buy it? and how would you set prices?

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Nothing personal Billy, but lose the attitude. You posed a question, I told you what was necessary to create a solution as an answer. Don't like it? Prove it to be false, I'm willing to listen and learn. But what I will not do is tell anyone to simply pull a new "instant HP trigger" out of their favorite orifice and expect it to work. The problem with "solutions" that are not well thought out is that they tend to create more problems than they solve. What sort of solution are you looking for? One that actually works? Or one that makes someone "feel good" because they "did something" but creates another problem.

The fact is, a dozen or so have already been through this, at length, and in detail. There is no simple single change solution, and most of those suggested will make a bad problem worse. If you want something quick, easy, and simple, and you do not care whether it works or not, by all means, pick a number that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and go with it.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

You all should re-read Jack McCarthy's post and think about it. NOTHING automatic will ever work.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

I disagree. I would rather say that cubic dollars and the "I want it NOW" syndrome has caused racers to not want to do the work to acquire the knowlege and expertise to know (for a fact) what makes a combo a good one. Learning and developing the expertise to build, maintain, and race a combo is not an easy task. That learning curve continues thru-out one's racing carrer. Richie Zul, John Lingenfelter, and Lee Shepherd come to mind in the hard work department.

Run em' off the record and let the performance and hard/smart work do the talking.
Ahfs did not work at the conception, is not working now, and will never work.
Factoring is the key and that can't be accomplished with tech being over ruled and a rule book that is a complete grey area.
Anyone could use the run completer on their weather station and do a better job as long as the combo was deamed legal before hp was added.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Terry, statistical process controls, such as they use in industry, properly applied, with good data, can work.

As far as getting people involved, you have several issues there. The biggest of which is who at Glendora do you think is capable of properly managing, and can be trusted with the power of, the system? Further, who do you think Glendora will allow you to choose?

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

To my knowledge there is no one in Glendora who could be trusted or has the knowledge or desire to oversee Stock and S/S nor is there anyone Glendora would allow to do it for them. Most of the names listed have "Issues" with NHRA already.....LOL. The board would require at a minimum 3 people who no longer race themselves and have a lot of background in Stock and S/S. Names such as Westly, Bruce, ex tech guys like that and older racers who dont have agendas and egos such as someone like Woodro, Keener, etc. But then again why would they want to be involved in a thankless job like that? Its not easy to keep track of all of that stuff and the Associations dont want to pay to have it done.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Michael, I'll take 2 please

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Alan, I'll lose my attitude about the time I'm taking that long, dirt nap and about the time that you stop whining about your 425/427 being beat to death. While I'm trying to honestly come up with a workable solution to what I consider to be a major problem with my sport I am once again proving a point about the majority of Sportsman racers that NHRA has always and will always take advantage of. We won't agree on ANYTHING that will be of any benefit to us at all! The bottom line is the simple fact that we are all willing to push our own selfish agendas to the point that the only things that get done are the things that get done TO us by the NHRA whether we like it or not. Now, I will ask again, focus boys, let's fix just ONE problem and then we can go on to the NEXT problem OK? No B.S., no impossible dreams, can we manage to hammer out a sensible, simple solution to the instant HP trigger that will bring underrated combos in line in a reasonable amount of time? No "the AHFS sucks", no "the business plan has changed", no "back in the old days", no "my car used to be a hitter and now it sucks", no "work harder a**hole", just a good, hopefully productive attempt at a solution that, if enough of us can agree on will be adopted by the NHRA. If we can agree to fix this then just maybe we can move on and, together, fix something else. At that point in time then we WILL be back in control of our sport.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Damn! I'm starting to sound like a politician!

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Billy, I don't whine, I state facts. I've never claimed the 427/425 was "beat to death". I did state that it could not compete against cars and combinations with bogus factors, that applies to any car, engine, or combination that is properly and honestly factored, not just the 427/425, or the 350/255 we just sold.

Solutions were suggested and agreed upon, and were submitted to NHRA. At least that is what I was told by multiple sources, both inside NHRA and outside NHRA. The only response anyone has seen from NHRA was to remove all control of the AHFS from the people who knew the cars and the class.

I have no selfish agenda. I love a challenge. I do not want anyone to get an unfair handicap, all I am looking for is for cars to be properly and honestly factored. There is absolutely no pride or pleasure to be had in beating anyone who is laboring under an unfair handicap.

But I agree, it is nearly impossible to get even a decent majority to unite and take a stand on a decision for the common good. I'd love to see it happen, but I'm a realist, and familiar with human nature.

Now, if what you propose as a solution is to lower the trigger for "instant HP", I can tell you that the math says that will penalize cars and combinations that are more popular a lot sooner than it will penalize cars that are running on bogus factors. Why? Because there is a MUCH greater chance that a more popular car will go under the lower trigger either on purpose or not. Simply because the more popular car is much more likely to have to run hard to win class, and far more likely to see a heads up race.

I cannot read your mind, nor do I want to, I can only read your post. From your post, it appears your goal is to see the cars farthest out of line brought back in to line ASAP (but I can only guess). Simply lowering the instant HP trigger will not do that. Because there are a lot fewer cars that are way out of line as compared to cars that are a little out of line.

Let me define way out of line as compared to a little out of line, at least as I see it. Way out of line is a car that can easily run 1.4 or more under the index, under good conditions (decent air at Gainesville, for example), while carrying at least 100# or more extra. A little out of line is a car that can run 1.2-1.3 under the index in really good conditions (good air at Atco, for example), carrying 50-100# extra.

Now can you see why I'm saying that just lowering the instant HP trigger does not work? Sure, you can try it, but do not be surprised when it brings about results that are not exactly satisfactory to you.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

My main concern about all of our worries on the subject of what would be a good solution to this problem is who at NHRA would listen to us even if we did come up with a viable proposal?
They never paid heed to anything the sportsman advisory committee suggested, and they put the darn committee together.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

how about no trigger at all, get rid of heads up runs during eliminations every one dials, let the fast cars go fast during class run offs, i am tired of seeing racers with 1.3 or faster cars dump and go 1.1 under at 90 mph,hard workers or intellegent people(with soft combos) deserve to go fast without penaltybecause the combo went 1.41 under one time,my ss/am car lost .15 for two passes in better than perfect conditions1.41. and 1.44 under a few years ago and it has only been repeated once since with no reverse factoring or consideration for the other twenty cars that can only run 1.1 under the index ,refactor cars and combonations off of a quarterly average for the entire class or car combination if refactoring is absolutly nessecary, this is a very touchy subject and sometimes very confusing as to wich way it should go, i just cant stand to watch cars get blasted for going fast, it takes the fun out of working hard to go fast just to be penalized ,weight added or index dropped,
well i said enough just my opinion flame away!!!!!!

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Question: What constitutes a Soft Combo????? Is 1 second under consdidered the norm but 1.40 is pushing the envelope. What if in lew of horsepower factors we use simple formula of 100 lbs. per tenth..
If someone runs 1,40 under make him add 400 lbs to that car only and not every same motored car in competition. Get the weight boxes ready....DD

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

The key ! (get rid of heads up runs during eliminations every one dials) The time has come with the supercharged cars,factory cars and soft combos, the guy with his or her old car can still run against these cars in the eliminator and hold his or her cost down , as for class let them go as fast as they can in the class run offs ! also just my opinion if you are with me great if not flame off !

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

If we wanted to bracket race, with absurdly expensive high maintenance cars, we could always go with Super Pro, Pro, Heavy, and Street. We could even do that at local tracks.

No thanks. If I have to bracket race all the time, I'll give up racing and double or triple my time hunting and fishing.

Re: We need a new "instant" trigger!
 

Bracket racing is alive and well in America. We don't need another bracket only class. If there is no heads up, why have rules. Have an anything goes stock apearing class. But please leave our class alone in regards to heads ups.