Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I began racing seriously in 1966 with a partner and we had a '57 Chevy sedan delivery Jr Stocker. Going to Indy and winning class was like Nirvana to most people that raced back then. Winning the eliminator was not really even what we thought about much. Winning class was huge. That and being a national record holder were the 2 biggest goals for many. Winning an eliminator would also have been big but seemed like a more remote thing to accomplish at a place like Indy. We managed to get to the H/SA ? class final at Indy in 1966 and got a big paper "T" decal on our windshield.....I never removed that "T". Some racers got to go many times and won class many times. In the modern era with so many classes it doesn't mean much. Making a bye run for a class win is pretty meaningless....back in 1966 every class had a lot of cars but there were a lot less classes. Every class winner got torn down and if he was illegal the R/Up got torn down and was given the win if he was found to be legal.....I think there are to many classes and there are a ton of them that should be dropped........Indy should still be class winners and then low qualifiers but cut the number of classes and there are many I personally would drop completely. Nobody wants to watch a pile of slow cars make singles and that is not the way it used to be at Indy......

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Rich,
My sentiments exactly.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Bill is correct. I personally know more than a couple of racers who will ONLY go to a National Event if class is contested. They'll go so far as to skip a race that is within 200-300 miles and instead go to a race 900 miles away, JUST because class is contested. And they don't go to single for class, either. Nice guys, always willing to help you, and mostly old time die hard racers, and none of them are strokes either.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

A LOT of what Rich says has great merit. Great post.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Rich said: .I think there are to many classes and there are a ton of them that should be dropped........Indy should still be class winners and then low qualifiers but cut the number of classes and there are many I personally would drop completely. Nobody wants to watch a pile of slow cars make singles and that is not the way it used to be at Indy......

Let me guess which classes you would "drop completely". The "slow cars" right? So what exactly IS a "slow car"? Anything slower than what YOU run no doubt. What you say makes as much sense as me saying I don't think there should be any fast cars because they take up too much time and nobody wants to watch a pile of Camaro's run each other. Why don't you just say " If your car isn't just like mine you shouldn't be allowed to race." Jim

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Calm down Jim, I've known Rich for a long, long time and you are wrongly assuming what he meant.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Thanks Billy....and yes we are good friends for many years. I know it takes a big effort to make any car run fast including 6 cylinder powered cars as well as FWD's. I was just making a post about my experiences in my foray's in Stock over the last 40+years. Jim your obviously very defensive as are almost all guys that race cars in the slower classes as well as fwd's. I guess your used to hearing stuff that threatens what you race so It's understandable if you get defensive. NO I don't think Stock should consist of 128 -396 Camaros or only for cars that cost $30,000+ but I also don't think Stock should have a pile of classes where only one car shows up. It seems to me those are usually the slower classed cars as well as the fwd categories. They are not heavily populated with cars. Thats just my observations and nothing else. NHRA should do whats best for the category and Indy should be run the way it always was......See ya at the races Billy......

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I'd have loved the challenge of running a class car, when I was younger and more energetic, then the budget reality also rears it's ugly head for me and my program, so I am an admitted bracket racer, but an admirer of real Stockers and Class cars.
Class racing possibilities went out the window for me when Modified Production went away. I'm not a fan of the Super Stockers that are just back half bracket cars with an expensive engine. Impressive in performance, hell yes, but not in the realm of what I call "grass roots" racing.

I was commenting (not criticizing) on one of our local bracket racers that went to Indy and was the only car in Q/SA (I think) and got a "class win", if that qualified him into the Eliminator field, that seems pretty wrong to others that had better performance in their classes but were left out.

I don't have the answers to please anyone, just an opinion.

At least I run a bracket car with full factory wiring, stock cooling, brakes, and suspension, on 9" tires, does that get me some love?
I did butcher the rear interior for my roll bar install, darn it, but blame NHRA safety rules for that one.

Bet I have one of the only competitive S/P cars on the lot with working horn, turn signals, interior lamps, and cigarette lighter.
Wouldn't have it any other way, if the car had a clock, it would be working too.;)


Sorry, delayed post, couldn't get it on yesterday......just sayin', not criticizing.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I don't know..What do you think,..boys? (LOL)

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Mark -- Seems to me you get a little cranky on certain subjects that ring your bell sooooo...........maybe this is a good time to "turn the other cheek" as the Nuns used to say ........

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

80 % of all the people bitching are class single winner. I rest my case. To all you class singles out there WORK ON YOUR **** then you can race for one round at least or maybe two if your lucky. Fastest 128 the best rule change in 50 years.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Now Charley Bob that is the wrong outlook, how hard a person works or how little money they spend is not important if they can run the index. Single car class so what, live with it. Indy is one race in twenty four. Rules should not be made for one race.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Tony....I remember your name from the 1966 era when I first started racing......I think maybe you had a '57 Chevy? How about "Big John" Barkley?......We always wondered how Powerglide equipped cars could run as fast or faster than the hydros. We had many sedan deliveries around here....I think the record was 14.78 in H/SA when we started and it was set at Half Moon Bay and we always heard that was a very fast track.....We raced all year in 1966 and never ran faster than that 14.78 record. I was 17 or 18..........

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Tony so what you are saying is performance should not be a factor at indy. If i spend x amount on a motor and only run .95 under and now i'am bumped by some turd .53 under car on a single (who has also spent x amount) run how is that right. Just because you win class should not put you in the field. I don't care how long it has been a rule it sucked from day one...................................

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I finally spent X on a motor and picked up a little.I will NEVER be the FASTEST in the class or a top qualifier,but if I can get a few more tenths closer,I might just have a shot at winning class.The one good thing (about the only thing) about running someone HEADS UP is that the slower car CAN win.I don't think the faster car should be guaranteed a spot in the field because they are fast.You should have to WIN your class,and not redlight or be dead late in class eliminations!
Just my $4.42 cents!

Daryl Bureski
3447
.5 under POS

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Only class winners should be in eliminator.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I was the 2004 U/SA Class Winner at Indy.
Even though I was driving the faster car,if I would have lost the class final,I don't think I should have automatically been placed in the field.I almost gave it away.However,I WON CLASS.


Thats not a very good example,but what about a car that is in the class final,but is NOT a low qualifier?
The car loses in the class final,but the class winner is found to be VERY illegal.He then is declared the CLASS WINNER,but is not allowed to race?

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

My memory fails me from time to time, so I need some help with this question. Have any of the bump-in class winners ever won Indy? I honestly can not remember and too tired to research it.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I don't know about that,but one of my favorite U.S. Nationals stories has to do with Jim Kaekel who posts on here from time to time.I don't remember what year it was,but he was not a qualifier and was listed as something like 8th alternate.
He was not planning on racing,but due to some breakage and no shows for the first round,he was given the opportunity to race.He hurried up and got his car,which I don't think was even warmed up.He got by the first round and many more after that,before getting Runner Up to Scotty Richardson.
If you can believe it,this race was on LIVE TV!!!!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Bruce Eric Waldo

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone
Bruce, Yes, I'm pretty sure Goob is a bracket racer. I think he has said he wouldn't run a class car. Too much hassle/money.
Everybody's welcome here , of course. I just have a problem with non-class racers telling us how we should do things.
Is that what you were asking?

I don't know...for somebody that has never experienced the thrill of maybe having the fastest Q/SA car in the country and to show up at Indy to show your metal and then have nobody else step up to the plate for a confrontation...And then to comment Superstockers with a back-half and an expensive engine don't seem to qualify as a "real" superstocker...I say no.:eek:

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

And what about the poor guy that travels 1200 miles to a race and nobody else shows up to run him in class? :(

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I've been watching this post for days now. Waiting and Waiting for SOMEBODY< ANYBODY to come up with the reason for nhra doing this.
I think it is "SIMPLE"
By taking away the class winner equation, going to the fastest 128 !!!!
You make it very easy to "TOTALLY ELIMINATE" class altogether.
Saves time and "MONEY" for nhra.


Now go ahead and fight about it.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

No Mr. Downing it only sucked for you and others who think winners are people with big wallets and not big hearts! I could qualify at the top almost any time I want, but winning class is special, no matter if it's a single or not, It should be rewarded. Bottom line, the individual racer has NO control over how many cars show up! Why should he be penalized for something that is out of his control? This rule makes no sense, except as a preliminary to eliminate class racing altogether. Wake up. Jim

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

I'm tired of reading so I skipped to the end to post. I remember racing a pure stocker (IHRA) in the early 80's. You had to win class or you did'nt race on Sunday. in 1981 I won class all 3 races I went to with multiple cars in the class I might add. We had to teardown at 2 of them. Fast forward a couple of years we got a single for class and still had to teardown.
STOCK
1) Should be performance driven.
2) Cars should be torn down
3) CLASS WINNERS SHOULD GET TO RACE
4) If you want fastest cars only run COMP.

Underdog rule: How many times have you watched a run with a 3 or 4 second spot, and pulled for the slow car to win?

The reason the A,B,C, etc cars don't want the slow cars racing is the same reason Dragsters don't like running door cars in bracket racing. THEY CAN'T JUDGE THEM. THEY HAVE TO DIAL HONEST.

What I see here is a bunch of people that have figured out buy a camaro pick an engine builder and run 1 second+ under. No work involved with that. The problem they hav'nt figured out is if you run off these other class cars you eventually only have about 4 or 5 classes at a race. That means more heads up runs. I guess thats when they do away with heads up. If this rule stays in, you will see Stock end up like IHRA Top Stock.

Former Class racer that still has Class
Chip Johnson

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Thanks Tony,

I felt like there had to be at least one person to do it over all these years.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Damn Chip, I've never met you but I knew that there was something about you that I like!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

According to some of you guys Kevin Helms should not have been allowed to run stock eliminator at the 2007 U S Nationals. He singled for his class win in B/S and only ran .78 under. I guess he needs to work harder, spend more money, learn how to go faster, change to a class with more cars in it, and then he would be considered good enough to race with the rest of you!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Great point Bob! There were several others also. Chip, you are the man, you hit it on the head, and yes you do have class no matter what class you run! Good to see you Billy posting on this also.

It appears to me that most of the people who for this rule change are guys who are fast enough to qualify but NOT fast enough to win their class. Just an observation. Jim

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

jeff if you travel 1200 miles to indy and can't run 1 plus under why are you coming? that is the risk you take at coming to indy. If nhra gets rid of frount wheel drive cars (single at indy) then I have no problem going back to class winner being put into tha show. Frout wheel drive cars don't belong in stock or super stock period. If money is a problem then run a slower class like R/SA. A friend of mine just purchased a R/SA for less then 6000 and will run at least .50. Just a little info to for everyone in case you all forgot. When the class winner bump rule was put into place there were no frount wheel drive classes and class single were few and far between unlike how thing are today. When was the last time you saw less then 15-20 singles at indy. Jim I'am fast enough to qualify and win class at indy. And most of the guys bitching about this rule are slow class single winners. Just an observation

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Good post ,Chip

This seems to be the attitude for some :

I have a car in one of the most popular (chaser) classes . I could qualify by ET at Indy but may not win class. I want to race anyway. I spent alot of money on my car. It's not fair...CHANGE THE RULES

Two years down the road, now that there's 30-40 bolt together LT1, LS1 and 305 cars in the eliminator:
I can't survive a heads up run in the eliminator....CHANGE THE RULES

Wake up

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Hey Downer3548 or whatever, there were 31 singles at Indy last year. Only 5 of them were FWD cars. That leaves 26 that were RWD. So eliminating FWD cars would solve everything? Yeah 5 classes, right. That will do it! Funny, I'm looking at the names of the posters and excluding you, I see guys who have been #1 qualifier many, many times as well as multi time national record holders, even a world champion! Sort of blows your post all to hell doesn't it. You just prove what I posted earlier, the people who agree with this rule have an anti FWD agenda. Oh and you intellectual giant, it's spelled FRONT not FROUNT or FROUT ! Jim

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Oh wait! This gets better! I see why 'Ol Charlie Downing #3548 is so touchy. Good 'ol Mr. Stock himself got TOSSED at Indy for being.........wait for it.............ILLEGAL! He was one of only two DQ's! He has to cheat to win class and qualify! "Damn those FWD cars! They made me cheat I tell ya!" Hahahahahahahahahaha. Hey are you going to the SportsNats next year Charlie? Look me up, we gotta party. Maybe you can give me some tips to pick my car up. Hahahaha. Ya gotta love it. Jim (the legal) "frount" wheel driver.

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2007#indextop

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

If I go to Indy and don't get on the ladder it's no big deal, happened a few times before, even a divisional race.
What grinds at me is the whiners and the malcontents getting these rules changes with their stealth crusades. Examples! No deep staging, .50 under to win class (greasing the skids for this last rule change), no blinders (NHRA over-stepped when they included everybody, but it will be back for class cars)!
Then specs that have been ignored for years are abruptly instituted and an engine that was legal one day is scrap iron!
Let's go bracket racing, the no heads up runs in eliminations is around the corner!

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Jim,
Killer post. I was typing the same thing then stopped. I did'nt want Chuckie to think I was picking on him.
Chip

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Way to go Jim.You said what a bunch of us were probably thinking.


Ed F.
Slow ,but I'm legal

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

This thread is great...I'm damn sorry I sold my LT-1 Stocker! The car has already been sold again and will likely sit around mostly as it has since last November.......Ed F.Called me a traitor last time I saw him and that was funny too, right Ed ! I should have kept it....spent some more money on it and got it going faster.....with the goal of getting to Indy and winning class!.....Nah....I love my dragster but don't even race it very often with the current cost of well everything......Nice to see Billy Nees posting again too...I love a guy who's not afraid to speak his mind.....and my old friend Bill falls in that category just a little bit....LOL.......Chip can definately win in any category and does regularly...he has earned his nickname....."the Legend". Bottom line is....everyone has their own idea of what is good for the class.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

i see it like this, in class there has to be two or more cars and the winner gets in, no solo runs you have to qualified . then set the rest of the field with the fastest cars against there index until you get 128 cars. i wish they would qualified the super class cars to 32 cars it would make better for the racers. just my opinion.

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Damm Wahlly your gettin a little hard on the boys.

Hammer

Re: if wally was'nt dead this woulda killed him
 

Sorry Jim about the spelling I was in a hurry to get back to the shop and actually work on my race car. I’am however glad you pointed that one out for me. Now back to the topic at hand. Jim what was the percentage of single for a class win at indy if you were to just talk about front wheel drive cars only (I believe that they all were singles in 07 5 for 5). I will ask you one better now out of all the front wheel drive class win how many actually had to race someone for there win? I will bet the percent will be less the 10. Point is that front wheel drive cars do not fit in S or SS And yes Jim I have been tossed at Indy I believe I that was stated in an earlier post by myself, but good stab anyway. .20 on the top ring will for surely slow me down. Now I feel it’s my turn, I recall racing you last year at the Gainesville pts what was your light again. Jim spend more time at the track and not on your computer. The rule is here to stay get over it.