Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Probably the transmission manufacturer (Jerico, Liberty) the clutch manufacturer's (McLeod, Advanced, Boinifante, etc.) and maybe the stick racers that are loosing up to a 1/4 second on the index.
The point is, as I and Evan Smith stated, the spread while once warranted, is no longer neccessary. Yes, a stick car will and should MPH faster. In the end, if adjusted, nothing changes except qualifying order. And since qualifying order is based on ET and not MPH, what's the big deal?

And I should also clarify my first post on this subject. I believe electromagnetic clutch pedal releases should only be allowed in classes which allow a trans-brake. Specifically, I am referring to Superstock.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

We all know that stick cars are direct drive in high gear, giving them better mph on average, but let's not forget that automatics often kill stick cars in 60-foot and to the 330. I've seen plenty automatic small-block Stockers (E/SA-G/SA) out-60-foot the A/S-C/S cars all day long. I'd take a killer 60-foot, which will help e.t. greatly, over big mph, which doesn't hurt, but doesn't really help e.t., any day! We also have plenty of gear selection, but only a small selection that will actually work, much like the low-gear-set or non-low gear for automatics.

Evan

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Jeff and Evan,

It sounds like you are looking for a little competitive advantage again. Lord knows you would never do that!

You guys say you're losing up to a quarter second on the index hmmmm. I don't think so. You have much better mile per hour which would certainly come into to play if we ran automatics and sticks heads up, which would be the case after the classes were combined. And they certainly would be combined. How about the records, how would an automatic ever get another mile per hour record?

You guys crack me up. Leave things alone.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

They should never have separated the HP on stick and autos..Why?.. they are the same engines! ..only changed the index-spread if it was needed for fairness..the HP differences for stick/autos are in some cases ridicuolus..

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

I think in a lot of cases the indexes aren't too far off. I know you're talking about Stock but take a look at Superstock. Especially like SS/K-SS/M. Those classes there can be a huge difference in actually ET. Look at the difference between the 283 cars in these classes with the stick and autos. I also think there is a lot to be said for what someone else mentioned earlier that look at the ratio of autos to sticks at most races. I'm not saying the research and development isn't good with the stick cars but I think more attention is put on the autos do to the mass of cars.

Just my opinion
Rick

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Evan, I do not disagree with anything you said technology wise but.....I still believe the stick shift car in the quarter mile is more efficient and faster et and MPH. If you put an automatic in your car do you think you would still run those numbers?

Yes there are alot of fast top stock and junior stock auto's in D-1 but the monsters are the stick shift car. You, Steve F jr and Steve F sr have out perfomed every auto this year. I hate to say Richie Atkins has not unloaded yet in top stock because that will side track this auto vs stick discussion. I know all the D-1 racers have worked their tails off testing and spend the frog skins, I applaud you all.

Before any one jumps in, I have no desire to build a stick car, a "soft combination". Keep this to stick vs auto. Great debate.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Evan,
I think your stick car runs pretty good at G weight ...

Sat, 21 Oct 2006, 05:53 PM
Junior Stock Qualifying, Final Order
MOHNTON, Pa. - Final order after one round of qualifying in Junior Stock at the NHRA, Pennsylvania Dutch Classic:

Psn---Num-Driver, Home Town, Car Type---------------Qual-ET--Qual-Spd-Top Spd

1 1798 Evan Smith, Linden NJ, '93 Mustang 10.860 121.76 121.76
2 1701 Bobby Twynam, Chatham NJ, '72 Nova 10.899 120.22 120.22
3 1534 Henry Kunz, Farmingdale NY, '69 Nova 10.900 120.34 120.34
4 1967 Jim Marshall, Scottsville NY, '80 Corvette 11.010 118.70 118.70
5 1137 Cecil Frazier, Canton MA, '91 Camaro 11.053 117.54 117.54
6 1454 Ken Kopecky, Edison NJ, '71 Demon 11.055 118.90 118.90
7 1035 Todd Hoven, Spotswood NJ, '72 GTO 11.060 117.91 117.91
8 1143 Johnny Williams, Smithfield RI, '71 Cutlass 11.087 118.13 118.13
9 1121 Lenny Williams, Poughkeepsie NY, '71 GranSport 11.135 117.65 117.65
10 1773 Dustan Lowell, Knsington NH, Duster 11.162 117.00 117.00
11 1142 Steve Ficacci, East Hanover NJ, '72 Camaro 11.166 117.00 117.00
12 1421 Kevin Fogerty Jr., Chalfont PA, '67 Camaro 11.381 116.15 116.15
13 1256 Len Abrahamson Jr., South Berwick ME, '72 Dust 11.423 116.15 116.15
14 17 Shane Oakes, Pipersville PA, '86 Camaro 11.492 116.98 116.98

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Bruce, I'm only assuming you didn't follow the chart on post #1 or maybe you don't believe it. There ARE upwards of a 1/4 second differences on index, stick vs. auto, same class designation. And I guess I could spin it right back to you, what advantage are you trying to protect?
The bottom line is I picked a stick combination because I wanted too for the fun & challenge of racing a stick. I'm pretty sure that mentality would apply to the other stick racers. But I just fail to see why there should be any spread on indexes. The stick has numerous gear choices available just as the auto does, both OEM & aftermarket. I'm not even going to go what can be done to adjust a stocker trans for different leave times but we all know the technology is available and in use. Convertors and clutches have evolved tremendously in the last
10+ years. I've seen the significant improvements of putting a T-200 in place of a trick T-350, well over a tenth just as I've seen the significant improvements offered by new design / lighter clutch assemblies, also good for over a tenth. My point is not to show partiallity to either transmission; both have made huge advances over the factory offerings used in years past.
The direction of NHRA has been to let the AHFS handle any disproportionate ET advantages. And "whoppin'" the throttle to scrubb off ET is not something you really want to do in a stick car in order to avoid the AHFS. That seems to be something the autos do with ease...and regularity.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Not sure what the relevance is of a race 2 years ago...:confused:

Superstock record comparrison
 

From NHRA.com a Comparrison of the stick vs. auto records in the "traditional" Superstock classes. I'll do Stock later.
Not only do the auto's seem to ET considerably quicker, the auto's seem to MPH considerably faster!
In fact, you'll see only two classes which have records on both sides have quicker ET's & MPH with a stick over auto, both held by Fords (428 & 289)!


SS/A 8.95 150.14 ------------------------SS/AA 8.67 153.68
SS/B 8.97 148.41 ------------------------SS/BA 8.86 150.37
SS/C 9.85 0.00 Minimum--------------- SS/CA 8.99 & SS/CA 148.46
SS/D 10.00 0.00 Minimum-------------- SS/DA 9.12 144.74
SS/E 10.05 0.00 Minimum-------------- SS/EA 9.32 143.40
SS/F 10.15 0.00 Minimum--------------SS/FA 9.60 134.91
SS/G 9.57 139.38 -----------------------SS/GA 9.67 135.83
SS/H 9.96 133.96------------------------SS/HA 9.63 136.50
SS/I 9.93 135.11 ------------------------SS/IA 9.54 137.50
SS/J 10.60 0.00 Minimum ------------- SS/JA 9.93 131.64
SS/K 10.31 127.51 ---------------------SS/KA 10.12 & SS/KA 0.00
SS/L 10.13 129.51 ---------------------SS/LA 10.52 & SS/LA 0.00
SS/M 11.40 0.00 Minimum ------------SS/MA 10.80 122.50
SS/N 11.75 0.00 Minimum ------------SS/NA 11.00 118.82
SS/O 12.00 0.00 Minimum ------------ SS/OA 11.62 115.46
SS/P 12.16 111.56----------------------SS/PA 11.55 113.91