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-   -   Qualifying with no AHFS (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=61424)

ALMACK 05-08-2016 06:44 PM
Re: Qualifying with no AHFS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton (Post 502938)
This has been floating for years. It has been brought up at SRAC, it has been proposed for Indy as a stand alone, it has been brought up as a Sportsnational only item, and it goes along with changes suggested or proposed for AHFS which has run it course IMHO. The NO AHFS at National Opens is a result of people asking it to go away so Somewhere you can run wide open. The AHFS was a result of a previous factoring system that was exposed to politics, but now it has been adjusted, interpreted, to where lots of if not most doubt its' effect. It's kind of like a Swimming Pool Tech told me about salt water pools; it takes about ten years for the flaws to appear from what was ideal on paper. No use in going into the flaws here, my fingers would wear out. I think NHRA might just want to see how fast some of these cars can run; old and new and in between. New being 2008 and newer, Old being carb(s) only, and In Between EFI. Maybe a new factoring system study?
^^ Good point.

Since I am a Ford guy, I did some studying of the classification guide for the OBD II Fords model years dating back to 1996. (FS cars do not count)

I find it interesting that in the last 10 years not one single 96 and newer eligible Ford has neither had a horsepower increase due to going too quick, nor has there been a h.p. decrease due to someone barely running the index and requesting a decrease in h.p.

That right there is telling to me...it means the combos are over factored and no one wants to build them.

If they did build them, they need to be at least 7-8 tenths under to be somewhat competitive .... (competitive meaning standing a decent chance in a same class match up ) Hasn't happened in 20 years because none of the production line OBD II Ford models are factored correctly.

IMO, NHRA needs to factor the production line models at 80% of their advertised SAE h.p. and let the racers build the combos.
Then let the AHFS take care of the quick combos.

Until then, I suppose we are back to 25-50 year old cars for the most part as our only choice.

rowdyboys31 05-09-2016 12:35 AM
Re: Qualifying with no AHFS
 
Alan, looks like NHRA is already doing that with factory HP on a few newer street cars. Here's a few I found 2009 mustang GT 4.6 factory 300hp/NHRA Guide 270hp, 2010 mustang GT 4.6 factory 315hp/ NHRA Guide270hp, 2013 Dodge Challenger SRT8 392 Hemi factory 470hp/NHRA Guide 380hp/New389hp.JK

ALMACK 05-09-2016 08:02 AM
Re: Qualifying with no AHFS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowdyboys31 (Post 503005)
Alan, looks like NHRA is already doing that with factory HP on a few newer street cars. Here's a few I found 2009 mustang GT 4.6 factory 300hp/NHRA Guide 270hp, 2010 mustang GT 4.6 factory 315hp/ NHRA Guide270hp, 2013 Dodge Challenger SRT8 392 Hemi factory 470hp/NHRA Guide 380hp/New389hp.JK
Of the ones you listed, it appears that Jeff Teuton with the 2013 Challenger @ 380 hp is the only competitive car out there.
Last year his Challenger was over 1.1 sec. under in B/SA and C/SA.
I haven't seen this years stats yet.

The 2010 Camaro is the only production year Camaro listed since 2002 and even it seems rated too high @ 400 hp. Not sure if anyone has tried that combo yet.

The '05-'14 Mustang combos are not competitive, IMO.
The '11-'14 Coyote Mustangs are rated more than a CJ....with pretty much the same engine.

I still think NHRA should rate the newer cars @ 80% of the dealer brochure advertised hp...then let the AHFS system take care of the fast cars.

Mike Pearson 05-09-2016 09:45 AM
Re: Qualifying with no AHFS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMACK (Post 503009)
Of the ones you listed, it appears that Jeff Teuton with the 2013 Challenger @ 380 hp is the only competitive car out there.
Last year his Challenger was over 1.1 sec. under in B/SA and C/SA.
I haven't seen this years stats yet.

The 2010 Camaro is the only production year Camaro listed since 2002 and even it seems rated too high @ 400 hp. Not sure if anyone has tried that combo yet.

The '05-'14 Mustang combos are not competitive, IMO.
The '11-'14 Coyote Mustangs are rated more than a CJ....with pretty much the same engine.

I still think NHRA should rate the newer cars @ 80% of the dealer brochure advertised hp...then let the AHFS system take care of the fast cars.
If they put the newer street cars in the guide it should start at the advertised factoryHP then go up or down as needed per the AHFS. This has been the way it has been done since the start.

Casey Miles 05-09-2016 10:39 AM
Re: Qualifying with no AHFS
 
On a new unfactored car, nhra should add 100 HP to the factory hp rating and let the race off HP. Why should a new combo jump to the head of qualifying. If nhra had done that in the beginning, old and new would be competing on the same level now.

Casey Miles
248 H

GUMP 05-09-2016 11:17 AM
Re: Qualifying with no AHFS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Pearson (Post 503015)
If they put the newer street cars in the guide it should start at the advertised factoryHP then go up or down as needed per the AHFS. This has been the way it has been done since the start.
It is no secret that the factories submitted low HP numbers in the sixties to gain advantage.

ALMACK 05-09-2016 12:10 PM
Re: Qualifying with no AHFS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 503019)
It is no secret that the factories submitted low HP numbers in the sixties to gain advantage.
^^ it happened

ALMACK 05-09-2016 12:17 PM
Re: Qualifying with no AHFS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Miles (Post 503016)
On a new unfactored car, nhra should add 100 HP to the factory hp rating and let the race off HP. Why should a new combo jump to the head of qualifying. If nhra had done that in the beginning, old and new would be competing on the same level now.

Casey Miles
248 H
Nobody is going to build a new car with a NHRA rating factored 100 hp higher than the factory hp.

Not going to happen.

JMO

ALMACK 05-09-2016 12:24 PM
Re: Qualifying with no AHFS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Pearson (Post 503015)
If they put the newer street cars in the guide it should start at the advertised factoryHP then go up or down as needed per the AHFS. This has been the way it has been done since the start.
They already do Mike.
There has not been one increase ( or decrease) in the last 10 years on '96 and newer Fords... not sure about GM or Mopar

There are alot of newer cars already in the guide at the advertised ( factory) hp. And there most will stay, never to be tried.

I would venture to say that over 80 % of these combos in the classification guide ( mid 90's and later models ) have never been tried for that very reason.

GUMP 05-09-2016 12:43 PM
Re: Qualifying with no AHFS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMACK (Post 503028)
Nobody is going to build a new car with a NHRA rating factored 100 hp higher than the factory hp.
You speak the truth. I purchased a new 2010 BIW in early 2010. When they released the spec. and HP I pushed it into a corner.

The 2015 spec. should be out soon........


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