Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Shouldn't you been able to go to Ford and be able to order one if that's the case?...this is just a kit-car..Nothing like the LT and LS 1's that sold in hundteds of thousands when they came out a bit soft..if these Fords had engines that were ava. and came out a little soft like the LS did i dont think people would/could have such hard feelings about it as they do now...I'm with Jeff on this one...but they should however have an class to race like the 68 Hemi's do...

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

It really amazes me how one sided some of you guys are about the new cars. As someone who has built several late model cars to run Stock, I can tell you that I would much rather start with a car like the Cobra Jet or the Challenger Super Stock. I have seen both cars and feel that they are perfect to run Stock. I think that it is absolutely great that the factories are even thinking about building cars that can run Stock let alone actually building them. I will agree that the rules have been changed over the years to allow the companies to submit combinations that fit their marketing plans, but isn't that exactly what Stock Eliminator has always been about? It has never been about protecting 40 year old cars. You also need to keep in mind that todays stockers are a whole lot more like an earlier Super Stock car. The current Super Stock cars are more like the early Pro Stocks. So, really these cars are a natural growth of the class.

The Cobra Jet haters are now saying that they are 100-150 factored horse power soft. They are soft for sure, but they have done nothing that suggests that they are that soft. These cars fit the printed rules in every way. Super charged combinations have been legal for Stock since the 1950's. These cars are no different than the ZL1 Camaro that is legal for the same class. They are ringers that had one goal in mind. Good for Ford!

In regards to the LT1 and LS1 HP numbers, you really need to keep in mind that both cars came with really mild camshafts from the factory. The LT1 was 201/208 @ .050" and the LS1 was 198/209 @ .050". The heads on both of these motors are vastly superior to any stock small block casting that came before them. It doesn't take a much to figure out why they run what they run. If you actually were to look up the stock dyno numbers on these cars you would know that they are pretty close to legit.

I really wonder what it took to bring these special cars to market? I will bet that it wasn't easy. Maybe we should let them have the spot light for a while. It might even help Ford sell a few Mustangs. In this economic environment that would probably be good for all of us.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

You were able to order them. They were built ready to race. Those are facts that I thought everyone in the discussion understood. I think the debate is more about how they were built and what they mean to the class. I think that eventually AA should become a 7.00 class and all the existing classes should be moved back .50. That would of course mean that 40 year old cars will no longer be the top dogs.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

The new CJ is a factory built race car. The kind of car that nhra routinely placed in Factory Experimental when the OEMs were playing before.

The 40 year old cars would no longer be the top dogs if nhra started a new factory Experimental class.

The CJ discussion centers around Horsepower and the abuse of the classification system by nhra. nhra knows what is going on here but they are too hard up to be an honest power broker in this deal. And the Ford engineers think they need to make twice the amount of rated horsepower to dominate. They told me that at SEMA.

A good multiplier for the 396 and 427 motors is 1.45 times the rated Horsepower, by comparison, the new CJ is making use of an 1.8 multiplier. Numbers do not lie. That's the good thing about drag racing, the numbers for this car, will continue to "amaze" the drag racing world and in turn it will prove our point about where it really belongs.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Bruce since you are putting numbers to it let's think about those numbers:


396 (rated 400hp) at a 1.45 ratio would make 580Hp = no way that is all these are making to run 9.70's.

Now the CJ, at 331 inches is 83.5% the physical displacement of the 396.

Using the 1.45 divided by 0.835 equals 1.74. This is the equivalent performance ratio required based solely on the delta in engine displacement. Not too far off your guess of 1.8 which is what they would have to be at to be performing equivalent at the same HP rating (ie: race weight). Since the CJ is rated 425Hp to the 400Hp of the 396, that ratio is 1.0625, multiply that by our 1.74 and you get 1.845. According to those ratios the CJ is handicapped to the 396. but pretty close again considering your .45 was soft (I think you posted your motor makes more than 580Hp)

So does 1-2 mph 1/8th mile really support the thought that these cars are 100-150HP underrated - these means you feel that to perform equivalent to the 396/427 cars the CJ should be another 750-1000lbs heavier. Ignoring that at that HP they couldn't add enough weight to actually run AA, using the old rule that 100lbs is a tenth these cars would slow down 0.8 to 1.0 from where they are today. Now I'm sure there is still ET in these cars but a whole second - get real. At least try to be realistic with your arguments.

Let's play devils advocate for a minute - there is 40 years worth of data to show that the Hemi's are overfactored against the 396 and 427 combinations - how many Hemi cars can run with the Chevy's in Stock or Superstock where they are in the same class? It's not for lack of trying. Why aren't we addressing that too?

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Tim,

A good 396 will make approximately 580 (1.45 to 1.5) on the Dyno. A good 427 will make between 600 to 615 (1.45) on the dyno. You can take several of these cars to mine shaft or factored tracks and put up 9.70 numbers. Racers have worked for 20 years to get these numbers on the track, however their baseline dyno power multipliers are still 1.45 to 1.5.

When it comes to power, I'll gladly swap a Cheverolet Big Block for your 331 cubic inch Supercharged motor.You aren't denying the power number of 1.8 for your motor! Are you?

How much power are you guys making with this CJ motor Tim? A CJ has already put down a 9.78 in only it's second time at a sanctioned event. How much are you guys still holding? At this point, time is on our side. You guys have barged into Stock classes and had your way. Now we'll sit back and watch the numbers.

How much power is that little 331 Supercharged motor making? You can do it.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

There you go, take Pond's motor put it in a '64 fairlane add high riser heads more compression only +5hp
and take on the new mustangs ...maybe.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

The factors I calculated are a HP/cu in basis. Re-reading your previous assumptions I think you are thinking in HP/rated HP. Relative to engine displacement the ratios are legit, relative to factored HP we're all guessing and I think anything over 700Hp (with the stock pulley) is going to be a stretch.

Second sanctioned event after a year of track testing/development. These cars were not slapped together overnight.

Now to expect that any new engine/car combination will evolve at the pace the combos like yours have is absurd. Anyone with the knowledge gathered over that 20 years of development that you mention can apply that to a new engine and within a few months be running at a near equivalent level of optimization. You see this demonstrated when guys like Bob Shaw find some obscure combo that no one cared about, build one and run circles around everyone in its class - first time at a sanctioned event.

I don't know first hand what the limit is for these cars, i can guess like you (actually my guess might be a littel less dramatic). Probably even agree that these cars will justify some HP and earn it in the near future. I was hoping to see some entered in Gainesville to run for class (haven't looked to see if there are any Chevy hitters entered for it to matter).

BTW - no response from you regarding the Hemi's? Don't wanna bring that up as it doesn't benefit your cause?

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Jeff - we've been over this before, I even posted production numbers. 5.4L supercharged Mustangs are built by Ford on the same assembly line as every other Mustang they produce. As uninformed as your average Ford dealer is they even know what motor comes in a GT500 (5.4L Supercharged) and where its built (Ford Vehicle Assembly- Dearborn Michigan), says so right on the window sticker.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

There are no new Cobra Jet car's listed in stock for Gainsville