Factory experimental - Page 4

Alan Roehrich · 01-15-2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

An excellent 427 will make about 640 Horsepower tops.

Yes, I'd call that excellent. A goal to pursue, at the very least!

Rory McNeil · 01-15-2009, 09:36 PM

Bill, I`ve always felt that the forced induction car should be limited to factory boost levels. Like Jeff said (and he used to run a Turbo FWD Stocker), whenever this subject was brought up in the past, it usually ended up with the Turbo FWD crying "No Fair", because turbo`s are inconsistent, or FWD cars don`t have many gear ratios to choose from, or how FWD cars are tricky to hook up, but then they brag about taking a bone stock turbo FWD car and running 1 1/2 seconds under for virtually no expense.Personally, the sealed pre set wastegate on a turbo or blowoff valve on a supercharged engine only seems fair.

Fred, I have heard the stories about NHRA Tech officials riding along with the blown 312 Fords way back when. By the way, Larry Walkers old 57 blown 312 car is still around. It`s been up here in Western Canada since the early 70`s, and is scheduled to come back out this year, after being in storage since about 1975.
One thing that I do find odd about the new Cobra Jet is that according to Georges post, it appears that NHRA knocked 75 HP from the 500 HP rating. That could be interesting! But hasn`t NHRA often "adjusted" factory HP ratings, both up & down? Like I said before, Pomona should be interesting! Seeing Jim Waldo back in a Ford is great, even if it is an automatic (for now!?)

bill dedman · 01-15-2009, 10:45 PM

Rory said, "Personally, the sealed pre-set wastegate on a turbo or blowoff valve on a supercharged engine only seems fair."

In the lengthy discussion I had with owners'-drivers of turbo Stockers, I learned a few things. I learned, for instance, that with certain LEGAL engine modifications (such as a legal cam swap, the installation of headers to better supply the turbo with exhaust gas, and a superior spark advance curve, etc.,) BOOST can increase well beyond factory levels.

Now, I'm not talking out both sides of my mouth here, but we do need to be fair about this. If a turbo car has the option of changing cams, headers, etc, (like a normally-aspirated car,) and in the process, it causes the boost level to go up due to more air passing through the engine, how would it be fair to deny them that additional boost, if they came by it the same way a normally-aspirated car comes by the additional horsepower it accrues with the addition of headers, a better cam. etc.????

It's not going to be easy to answer that... But....what's good for the goose, etc...

Insofar as requiring "a sealed pre-set wastegate on a turbo or blowoff valve on a supercharged engine," IF something like that were ever to be done, wouldn't a tell-tale boost gauge to be read by the tech who does the fuel check and weighs the car after every run be a lot simpler and cheaper? He would have in his possession, a boost specification provided by the NHRA tech dept. that would represent the allowable psi for that particular engine, and when the car comes in for its fuel check and to be weighed, the tech would simply look at his chart for the car, and if the tell-tale gauge needle is stuck at a number beyond the chart spec, then that car cannot compete any more at that race. Just like if the fuel won't check, or the car's too light...

A tell-tale boost gauge is a lot cheaper and easier to install than a dedicated wastegate or blowoff valve, don't you think? Only needs one small piece of tubing...

Bill

Chuck Beach · 01-16-2009, 08:23 AM

Now this post is funny ... just because it is not your brand some of you complain and whine. Let's talk about cars that came out under rated ... the 305 hp LT1 Firebird and Camaro was rated at 275 ... what a joke, you could run a second under at that HP before you did anything to the motor. Then there was the LS1 which was rated at 335 but NHRA at 305. Another joke, I know a guy that just put a cam, headers, a gear and a set of tires on that combo and went 1.10 under at Indy. Now if this was a new Camaro you guys would think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread ... Give these cars a chance before you bash them, maybe you guys should build one ...

Bruce Noland · 01-16-2009, 08:37 AM

Probably the best way for us to deal with the new After Market Super Stock cars running in Stock is to simply take up a collection and make nhra a better offer. So, all we have to do is find out how much it cost Ford and Chrysler to place these cars in Stock. Then we just have to raise more money and go pay the nhra. I'm sure it really is just that simple.

Well, maybe this would be a short term fix because Ford and Chrysler would then come back with a better offer and we would lose all our money.

And I wonder about the racers who are going to race these cars in Stock. I wonder what they are thinking. Do they see this as a fair deal for the Stock Category? Now they have these great big cannons to race against a bunch of racers with pistols. This really is a new day for Stock. This is not part of a cycle. It is a major reset.

Greg Hill · 01-16-2009, 08:44 AM

The biggest problem I see is that these are not street legal cars. These are purpose built race cars with bogus shipping weights and in the case of Ford an engine that doesn't come in a street legal car. Of course with Ford that's not a new thing. Chuck, if these cars were in your class and could run 2 seconds under the index you would be whining and complaining too.

Greg

Billy Nees · 01-16-2009, 08:50 AM

Who are you and what have you done with the REAL Bruce Noland? I've been bitching for years about all of the exotic new stuff finding its way into Stock and making it harder for the guys racing real cars to compete and the REAL Bruce has been telling me that I'm crazy and Stock has to change or it will die! Seems to me that change is making this person (whoever he really is) a little itchy. Again, welcome to MY world.

Bruce Noland · 01-16-2009, 08:55 AM

Billy,

I know you live in a very mysterious world. But I don't remember ever saying the things you just brought up.

But do we now agree?

Billy Nees · 01-16-2009, 09:00 AM

100%

Chuck Beach · 01-16-2009, 09:02 AM

Greg,
The LT1 and the LS1 were both in my class and I got my ***** handed to me lots of times until they put them in their own class ... and now they are back, but don't fit in my class anymore ...

01-15-2009, 09:36 PM	#32
Rory McNeil VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: from Vancouver BC Canada, now in Nova Scotia Posts: 1,257 Likes: 244 Liked 939 Times in 259 Posts	Re: Factory experimental Bill, I`ve always felt that the forced induction car should be limited to factory boost levels. Like Jeff said (and he used to run a Turbo FWD Stocker), whenever this subject was brought up in the past, it usually ended up with the Turbo FWD crying "No Fair", because turbo`s are inconsistent, or FWD cars don`t have many gear ratios to choose from, or how FWD cars are tricky to hook up, but then they brag about taking a bone stock turbo FWD car and running 1 1/2 seconds under for virtually no expense.Personally, the sealed pre set wastegate on a turbo or blowoff valve on a supercharged engine only seems fair. Fred, I have heard the stories about NHRA Tech officials riding along with the blown 312 Fords way back when. By the way, Larry Walkers old 57 blown 312 car is still around. It`s been up here in Western Canada since the early 70`s, and is scheduled to come back out this year, after being in storage since about 1975. One thing that I do find odd about the new Cobra Jet is that according to Georges post, it appears that NHRA knocked 75 HP from the 500 HP rating. That could be interesting! But hasn`t NHRA often "adjusted" factory HP ratings, both up & down? Like I said before, Pomona should be interesting! Seeing Jim Waldo back in a Ford is great, even if it is an automatic (for now!?) __________________ NHRA 6390 STK M/S 85 Mustang

01-15-2009, 10:45 PM	#33
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Factory experimental Rory said, "Personally, the sealed pre-set wastegate on a turbo or blowoff valve on a supercharged engine only seems fair." In the lengthy discussion I had with owners'-drivers of turbo Stockers, I learned a few things. I learned, for instance, that with certain LEGAL engine modifications (such as a legal cam swap, the installation of headers to better supply the turbo with exhaust gas, and a superior spark advance curve, etc.,) BOOST can increase well beyond factory levels. Now, I'm not talking out both sides of my mouth here, but we do need to be fair about this. If a turbo car has the option of changing cams, headers, etc, (like a normally-aspirated car,) and in the process, it causes the boost level to go up due to more air passing through the engine, how would it be fair to deny them that additional boost, if they came by it the same way a normally-aspirated car comes by the additional horsepower it accrues with the addition of headers, a better cam. etc.???? It's not going to be easy to answer that... But....what's good for the goose, etc... Insofar as requiring "a sealed pre-set wastegate on a turbo or blowoff valve on a supercharged engine," IF something like that were ever to be done, wouldn't a tell-tale boost gauge to be read by the tech who does the fuel check and weighs the car after every run be a lot simpler and cheaper? He would have in his possession, a boost specification provided by the NHRA tech dept. that would represent the allowable psi for that particular engine, and when the car comes in for its fuel check and to be weighed, the tech would simply look at his chart for the car, and if the tell-tale gauge needle is stuck at a number beyond the chart spec, then that car cannot compete any more at that race. Just like if the fuel won't check, or the car's too light... A tell-tale boost gauge is a lot cheaper and easier to install than a dedicated wastegate or blowoff valve, don't you think? Only needs one small piece of tubing... Bill __________________ Bill Last edited by bill dedman; 01-16-2009 at 08:07 PM.

01-16-2009, 08:23 AM	#34
Chuck Beach Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Delaware, Ohio Posts: 664 Likes: 12 Liked 59 Times in 13 Posts	Re: Factory experimental Now this post is funny ... just because it is not your brand some of you complain and whine. Let's talk about cars that came out under rated ... the 305 hp LT1 Firebird and Camaro was rated at 275 ... what a joke, you could run a second under at that HP before you did anything to the motor. Then there was the LS1 which was rated at 335 but NHRA at 305. Another joke, I know a guy that just put a cam, headers, a gear and a set of tires on that combo and went 1.10 under at Indy. Now if this was a new Camaro you guys would think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread ... Give these cars a chance before you bash them, maybe you guys should build one ... __________________ Chuck Beach 3340 STK Last edited by Chuck Beach; 01-16-2009 at 08:28 AM.

01-16-2009, 08:37 AM	#35
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: Factory experimental Probably the best way for us to deal with the new After Market Super Stock cars running in Stock is to simply take up a collection and make nhra a better offer. So, all we have to do is find out how much it cost Ford and Chrysler to place these cars in Stock. Then we just have to raise more money and go pay the nhra. I'm sure it really is just that simple. Well, maybe this would be a short term fix because Ford and Chrysler would then come back with a better offer and we would lose all our money. And I wonder about the racers who are going to race these cars in Stock. I wonder what they are thinking. Do they see this as a fair deal for the Stock Category? Now they have these great big cannons to race against a bunch of racers with pistols. This really is a new day for Stock. This is not part of a cycle. It is a major reset. __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK

01-16-2009, 08:44 AM	#36
Greg Hill VIP Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville , KY Posts: 1,994 Likes: 63 Liked 270 Times in 68 Posts	Re: Factory experimental The biggest problem I see is that these are not street legal cars. These are purpose built race cars with bogus shipping weights and in the case of Ford an engine that doesn't come in a street legal car. Of course with Ford that's not a new thing. Chuck, if these cars were in your class and could run 2 seconds under the index you would be whining and complaining too. Greg __________________ Greg Hill 4171 STK

01-16-2009, 08:50 AM	#37
Billy Nees VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: On a hilltop in Pa. Posts: 4,223 Likes: 3,096 Liked 6,785 Times in 1,523 Posts	Re: Factory experimental Who are you and what have you done with the REAL Bruce Noland? I've been bitching for years about all of the exotic new stuff finding its way into Stock and making it harder for the guys racing real cars to compete and the REAL Bruce has been telling me that I'm crazy and Stock has to change or it will die! Seems to me that change is making this person (whoever he really is) a little itchy. Again, welcome to MY world. __________________ Billy Nees 1188 STK, SS World's greatest Under-Achiever!

01-16-2009, 08:55 AM	#38
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: Factory experimental Billy, I know you live in a very mysterious world. But I don't remember ever saying the things you just brought up. But do we now agree? __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK

01-16-2009, 09:00 AM	#39
Billy Nees VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: On a hilltop in Pa. Posts: 4,223 Likes: 3,096 Liked 6,785 Times in 1,523 Posts	Re: Factory experimental 100% __________________ Billy Nees 1188 STK, SS World's greatest Under-Achiever!

01-16-2009, 09:02 AM	#40
Chuck Beach Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Delaware, Ohio Posts: 664 Likes: 12 Liked 59 Times in 13 Posts	Re: Factory experimental Greg, The LT1 and the LS1 were both in my class and I got my ***** handed to me lots of times until they put them in their own class ... and now they are back, but don't fit in my class anymore ... __________________ Chuck Beach 3340 STK