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Old 01-17-2015, 08:37 PM   #11
Alan Nyhus
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Default Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

The '68 350HO 320 hp @ 305 factored hp (6/30/08) isn't totally out of line. Pretty stout little motor...good camshaft, darn near 12:1 compression ratio (at max. bore), etc.

The other thing to think about on the Ventura is that the hp factor occurred 11/10/2005. Lacking a bunch of cars running this combo, it seems a review of that factor would be in order by NHRA.

FWIW. -Al
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Old 01-17-2015, 09:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

Again, the main reason for exploring the '76 455 possibilities, is because I already have a running 455 with 6x heads, in my '68 bracket Bird. I can get it running good in the bird and see if it has the potential to run the index in a heavier '76 body.

At 3664lbs, the TA is the lightest body I could run. That's an 11.82 weight break. If I understand the rules correctly, you can add weight to make the next lower class, or take out weight to fit the class better. So, to fit the 11.50 weight break perfectly, that would be 11.5 x 310 = 3565lbs.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2107

That would run H/SA, which has a 12.15 index. Some of you guys who know how to figure all this, please check my calculations and see if I am correct.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

I think my 455 will run at least mid 11's in the '68 Bird. I haven't weighed it, but it should weight just over 3000lbs. So, if I put it in a '76 Bird which weighs 3565, that should slow it down by about .57 sec. So, if the motor runs an 11.50 in the 3000lb Bird, then it should run between 12.00 and 12.10 in the heavier '76 TA, with the same trans, converter and rear gears.

Now I'm not use to figuring out all this stuff. We just ran a '68 Bird at 3300lbs with a 330 hp engine and it came up exactly 10.00. So some of you guys who know how to figure all this out, please check my calculations and see if I'm anywhere in the ball park. Thanks !

Last edited by oldskool; 01-17-2015 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 01-17-2015, 10:27 PM   #13
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Default Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

Oldskool,
I will be watching this with interest.
One thing to remember on the weight calculations, you have to add 170 lbs for the driver to the weight. So your 310 hp times 11.5 weight break = 3565 + 170 = 3735 lbs race weight.

I have a 67 Firebird Convertible that I run in IHRA stock, with a zz4 crate motor (G/CM). I also bracket race it. More brackets than anything last year and probably this year, as I have a son who just started Jr. Dragster racing.
Would love to build a 400 - 4 speed combo eventually, and I have a set of 670 heads and intake - 1967 only combo on the 400. But time, work, kids, money, etc. all have this on hold. My car is originally a Sprint OHC 6 car, and I have the original motor in the shed.
Good luck with your build.
There are some really knowledgeable Pontiac people on here that are always helpful. If you ask nice, sure you will get all the help you need.

Ken

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Old 01-17-2015, 10:37 PM   #14
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Default Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Nyhus View Post
The '68 350HO 320 hp @ 305 factored hp (6/30/08) isn't totally out of line. Pretty stout little motor...good camshaft, darn near 12:1 compression ratio (at max. bore), etc.

The other thing to think about on the Ventura is that the hp factor occurred 11/10/2005. Lacking a bunch of cars running this combo, it seems a review of that factor would be in order by NHRA.

FWIW. -Al
Yeah, I thought about the 350HO. But at 305, the '75 455 is 5hp less and the '76 is only 5hp more. And the 455's have so much more low end torque. Also, the little 350 will have to turn up some high rpm to run the number. That means a crazy cam and high spring pressures.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2008

The 455 on the other hand, will max out at no more than 6000rpm. That means you can get by with a reasonable cam, spring pressures and normal lifters. That alone will make the 455 cheaper to build and maintain. We had several 455's that ran mid 12's for hundreds of passes, without changing cams, springs or lifters. And they were running a TH400 tranny, stock 13" converter and 3.55 gears. So I would feel a lot more confident about the possibility of reaching the goal, for a reasonable price, if using a 455.

From what I have learned so far, from this site, it looks as if the higher the rpm you must turn, the more the engine will cost to build and maintain.

Last edited by oldskool; 01-17-2015 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 01-17-2015, 10:41 PM   #15
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Default Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

Okay, I remember the article, and your driver...somewhat...but what is or was her full name, and yours?

Oh ,and let's get this out of the way right now:

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Old 01-17-2015, 11:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone View Post
Okay, I remember the article, and your driver...somewhat...but what is or was her full name, and yours?

Oh ,and let's get this out of the way right now:

OK, I think I can explain all this. My name is Don Hurst. They named a shifter after me.

My wife goes by her initials, which are T & J. She doesn't like her real name that much, so everybody has just called her TJ now for about 40 years. She just said "But I'm not really that old."

Now, about Freddie: Back in the old days, most people named their car. So TJ named her car "Easy Lovin". She designed all the numbers and lettering herself, and cut them out of Mylar decal material. That name came from the Freddie Hart song by the same name. It was one of her favorite songs back then. In fact, it was a lot of people's favorite song. If the online info is correct, the song won top country song of the year in both 1971 and 1972. It was #1 on the country charts for 3 weeks, even reached as high as #17 on the Billboard chart.

And as you can imagine, it got a lot of air time on the radio, on both pop and country stations. TJ just said she even remembers it being played over the PA system at some of the tracks where we raced.

So, when people saw that name on her car, they all could relate it to that song.
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Old 01-18-2015, 12:16 AM   #17
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Default Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

TJ used the EZ name thru the '78 season, then changed it to "Born Again". One pic below shows her blasting off at I-20 Dragway in Tyler, Texas, in '79.

The other pic shows her '67 Bird which ran a best of 11.82 in '88. Beginning around '76 into '77, all the local tracks we ran switched to bracket only, with very few exceptions. They did have an IHRA points race in Tyler in '78. But they also ran a 16 car bracket field at that race. TJ won it from the #16 position.
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Old 01-18-2015, 01:37 PM   #18
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Default Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

Mark probably has more insight on this --but--We looked at that 75-76 455 but if I'm not mistaken the head CCs jumped about plus 20 CCs from 1974. At a loss of about 2 compression ratios we decided to pass.
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Old 01-18-2015, 02:02 PM   #19
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Default Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

68 Firebird. The 400 combo rated at 327 like Brent runs can run the index without much trouble or expense. If you want it to be a killer, then you need a good trans converter and some testing time and effort. You will have to rpm these some to make them run well.

the 350 combo could be an interesting deal. Good compression, better heads for the smaller size. 305 is a good place to start with these. This should run the index without much trouble. Parts should be easy to find, as well.

Either car you build should get you into the game without a munch of expense, getting to the next level is the harder part. Expense wise
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Old 01-18-2015, 02:08 PM   #20
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Default Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

We'll get around to possible 350 and 400 combos later. But since I already have a couple of 455's together, I wanna discuss 455 combos some more. I already mentioned using a '76 TA.

But now I wanna explore the possibility of using one of the heavier bodies. One of my Pontiac heroes from the old days was Jack Mullins. We saw him run at a points race in Jackson, MS in the mid '70's. He ran a screamin 389 and a 4-speed in a big heavy wagon.

Jack won some big races. I think it was at the US Nationals where he beat the factory Mopar driven by Judy Lilly(Miss Mighty Mopar). I think he was responsible for several hp refactors on the 389 Pontiac engine.

Another famous Pontiac racing wagon was the "Tons a Fun" Lemans wagon. I think Gary and Charlene Wood both won races in this wagon--actually there were at least 2 of them.

http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/...ntiac-history/

I can see at least 3 advantages of using a wagon. (1) They are heavy, putting you in a much lower class. (2) A lot of that weight is in the rear, which should help increase traction. (3) If you can find one that hasn't been crushed, it should be cheaper than a TA.

Now there are several other big cars that were about the same weight as the wagons. Some of these had a real long wheel base--123". Some, like the Grand Prix, had a shorter wb--116"

Now, my thinking is that the big cars with the real long wb would be the least desirable for a drag car. I would think that either a Lemans or a GP would be a little easier to hook up, than the big car with the longer wb. What do you guys think ?

One other advantage I can see that the heavier cars might have is that you can run the stiffer radial slicks with a lot of air pressure. They will still hook because of the extra weight over the tires, especially the wagons. And the higher air pressure will produce less rolling resistance.

After looking at the list of '76 models that can run a 455, it looks to me like the Lemans wagons with 116' wb might be the best choice. Next would be the 112" wb 2-door Lemans. Then the GP's. I'd say that the Cats and Bonnies with 123" wb would be the worst choices.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2107

Now, here's a question for you guys. The big wagons have a 127" wb and weigh 5000lbs. Is this just too big for Stocker ? Or can it still be competitive because of it's slower index ? Will all that extra weight be harder on parts, causing failures ?

Also, do any of you guys know if the '76 Lemans and Lemans Wagons had the 8.5" rear end ? What about the GP ? Cat's, Bonnies, & Big Wagons ?
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Last edited by oldskool; 01-18-2015 at 02:20 PM.
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