Ladder bar leaf spring guys

[Tom Broome]

Originally Posted by joespanova

Nothing has changed except the ride height in the rear..........IIRC.
Mark seems to know you................?

Thanks for the compliment Mark.
Actually Joe we might, I have made more than a few passes at Atlanta Dragway a couple of decades ago.

As I recall your car is more of an "old school" setup. A lot of folks used to basically lock the front end down and didn't pay attention to the quality of the (limited) front end travel.

The front end needs to be (very) free to travel, the springs need to contain a lot of stored energy to allow the weight transfer to take place, and the shocks need to control the rate of reaction. Then you can control the height of the wheelstand (if need be) with front end travel.

I'll enclose a picture. This truck was built as a super stocker, with ladder bars and coil overs, they upgraded the front end components and got this result.
I haven't seen it on scales, but it's pretty nose heavy. No big chunks of lead in the back of the truck.

[carbuilder]

Originally Posted by jerry witzel

On my 68 Camaro the front of the ladder bars are angled downward, it always leaves with the wheels up. The 66 Nova I used to own had the front of the bars angled up when I first bought it and it had no adjustments. I had a guy weld new brackets on it and angled the front of the bars downward. The first race with it like that it broke 1 rear shock and cracked both upper shock mounts. I was always under the impression that with them angled downward it would leave harder. I do know that front and rear ride height can really effect weight transfer.

if you tore up shocks and or brackets,, you were most likely either bottoming out or topping out the shock itself

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by Tom Broome

Thanks for the compliment Mark.
Actually Joe we might, I have made more than a few passes at Atlanta Dragway a couple of decades ago.

As I recall your car is more of an "old school" setup. A lot of folks used to basically lock the front end down and didn't pay attention to the quality of the (limited) front end travel.

The front end needs to be (very) free to travel, the springs need to contain a lot of stored energy to allow the weight transfer to take place, and the shocks need to control the rate of reaction. Then you can control the height of the wheelstand (if need be) with front end travel.

I'll enclose a picture. This truck was built as a super stocker, with ladder bars and coil overs, they upgraded the front end components and got this result.
I haven't seen it on scales, but it's pretty nose heavy. No big chunks of lead in the back of the truck.

Good info above. Also, I always remove the teeth from the ends of a new set of upper control arm bushings, and put longer bolts through them, ground to length to bottom out, that come out just tight enough I can rotate the big washer, but no end play. If you pick up the control arm & ball joint (not connected the the spindle, of course) and drop it without it falling back down, it is too tight. I lube the inner shaft with a good moly lube, since the bushing will now be rotating on the shaft. Drilling the bolts for a grease zerk, with a cross drilled hole makes keeping them lubed and moving freely won't hurt. Did all this back in the 1960s with my old '56 Chevy Jr Stocker. Zero track prep back then, and 7" tires. You get creative. My present car is done the same way. It does not know a slick track.
Also, back off the lower control arm inner shaft bolts a bit. Everything (IMHO) should move freely. Longer coils, wound from smaller diameter wire for more stored energy. Shocks controlling how fast they move, travel limiters (Mine are cables) controlling how far they move, it should hook anywhere. Controlling, not trying to do, wheel stands will be your new pastime. Front shocks are a big deal. don't cheap out. There is a big difference there. Look into Santuf shocks. And, having an Eastexas race car doesn't hurt anything.

[joespanova]

OK
Thanks for the replies. Tom , yeah its "old school"............but old school is still OK. I have already applied most of what you are saying over the years , but its good to bring it up again.
Don't forget though ,like I said this car WAS very wheel stand prone and I wanted to tame it down. The ride height change was more cosmetic with the side effect of virtually eliminating wheel stands. I just didn't expect it. So without going back where I was I tried recovering some of it ( by applying what was suggested "Tom" ) just to get the car to work the way I wanted it to. Without much success.
As I got under the car today I see the top hole ( front ladder bar ) , which is 1 hole above the current location , was never used and I'd have to beat the floor pan a little to get the bar in that top hole. So I decided to lower the housing 1 hole on the floaters instead......that C/G thing should be applied here.
Ed , I did use moly lube and yep they slide easier...........I was reluctant to use it because it attracts dirt.

[joespanova]

OK......
Finished.......that change made the azz end sit exactly 1 inch higher. This should be interesting........I'll follow up in a week or so.

[Tom Broome]

Ed, all good points, especially shocks. Good cars deserve good shocks. My modified Camaro, in 1987, had Koni shocks all of the way around, double adjustable in the rear. Big money back then for a guy bolting motors together for a living.
These tires nowadays seem to want the car to do it's thing a little smoother, locking the front end travel down (like the old days) seems to just shock the car when the travel stops. The car pitches forward and gets a big bounce. Good shocks let you control the travel to the limiters without snapping the rotation too fast (allowing more total travel). More total travel lets the car settle more smoothly from a wheelstand without that big bounce.
With a stick, we have to put the clutch into the equation. Got to control the clutch and tire slippage at the hit.
I agree about the control arm bolts and serrations Ed. I'm pretty picky there. For the Camaro (1st gen) Nova front ends I'll green loctite the upper shaft bushing bolts just as the washer begins to drag on the rubber bushings. I want to use full shoulder bolts on the lower pivots and not crush the frame on the bushings when I tighten them. I'll use full metal lock nuts to control how hard I'm squeezing the subframe.

But, I expect that some of the "new style" control arm bushings are probably less finicky than what I'm used to. I don't build as many race cars anymore. I am going to try some pretty soon.

As an aside, if you happen to be putting together a street car (think restoration). I don't recommend tightening the upper and lower control arm pivot bolts (with serrations) until the car is assembled and at ride height. Those serrations can add or subtract some ride height/spring rate.

[Tom Broome]

Originally Posted by joespanova

OK
Thanks for the replies. Tom , yeah its "old school"............but old school is still OK. I have already applied most of what you are saying over the years , but its good to bring it up again.
Don't forget though ,like I said this car WAS very wheel stand prone and I wanted to tame it down. The ride height change was more cosmetic with the side effect of virtually eliminating wheel stands. I just didn't expect it. So without going back where I was I tried recovering some of it ( by applying what was suggested "Tom" ) just to get the car to work the way I wanted it to. Without much success.
As I got under the car today I see the top hole ( front ladder bar ) , which is 1 hole above the current location , was never used and I'd have to beat the floor pan a little to get the bar in that top hole. So I decided to lower the housing 1 hole on the floaters instead......that C/G thing should be applied here.
Ed , I did use moly lube and yep they slide easier...........I was reluctant to use it because it attracts dirt.

No, nothing wrong with "old school" as long as it's not just old. It happens all of the time, those good older parts just want the attention they once received.

In a perfect world I would adjust the housing ends of the ladder bars to mitigate the pinion angle change.

I'll not bore you with too many more opinions, go run that thing.

[Bruce Fulper]

Buy Dave Morgans book. ""Doorslammers. A Chassis Book" It has everything you need to learn

[Mike Rietow]

One size doesn't fit all. In terms of weight transfer a lot depends on stored energy-weight on the rear springs whether it be leaf or coil vs shock settings/valving. High bar pick-up points are fast reacting, low are slow. The first movement of the rear dampers(shocks) is to extend. The longer you can prolong/manage that movement the less the wheelstand. Specific damper valving plays a huge role as well .... linear-progressive or the modern regressive valving (pressure drop). Look at the rearend seperation on high hp cars in classes where wheely bars aren't allowed for clues. I'd say Bickle's Chassis book is far and away the best. You'll never stop learning from it if you have the ability to read between the lines and/or critically think. Generic idea's/explanations never reach the levels most all strive for.