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View Poll Results: Should roller rockers be allowed on all stockers?
Yes 113 53.81%
No 97 46.19%
Voters: 210. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-26-2008, 01:34 PM   #21
Todd Hoven
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

This is what I said

"Besides Jeff, you race super stock you dont have a dog in this fight anymore. I wouldn't think it would matter to you".

This is what the NO NAME SSdiv6 guy said I said.
"By the way, your comment about Jeff Lee not having a say was out of line. "

He can have a say, I wondered why he is lobbying for this stuff when he left the class. I was asking a question, thats all.
We don't need roller rockers, guys need to quit taking the easy way out, and lobbying for rule changes. I redlighted in a Heads up race this weekend, should I lobby for pro tree on heads up so I don't redlight??? no I have to work harder as a driver to fix that.
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Old 05-26-2008, 01:35 PM   #22
Todd Hoven
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

Jesel rockers is where it will wind up, and guys will bitch that it makes no difference.
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Old 05-26-2008, 01:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

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Originally Posted by Todd Hoven View Post
Jesel rockers is where it will wind up, and guys will bitch that it makes no difference.
By the way, did I ever said I was lobbying for roller rockers? All I did was state the facts of why there are rocker arm failures. Jeff is still involved with lots of stockers. Give NHRA some credit, if they were to approve roller rockers, they would never approve a shaft rocker configuration for an application that never had one from the factory. There are only very few shaft rocker configuration engines already running the class such as the Mopars and Buicks. By the way, I have dyno'd engines with both stamped and roller rockers and the power gains are insignificant or null. The main issue is reliability.
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Old 05-26-2008, 01:52 PM   #24
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

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Originally Posted by Todd Hoven View Post
Jesel rockers is where it will wind up, and guys will bitch that it makes no difference.
If they were to approve Jesels, the difference will not be in performance, it will be in the wallet: $$$$$
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:01 PM   #25
Todd Hoven
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

"By the way, I have dyno'd engines with both stamped and roller rockers and the power gains are insignificant or null. The main issue is reliability."

Right, and when we have 8800 RPM big blocks in A and AA we will need bigger tires and other things. Do you think with roller rockers guys will run 350 on the seat and 7 or 800 open on there valve train? I'm sure of it. You will see more power. Back in the day the guys that ran good in stock and superstock were the ones that could look at the rule book work within it and bend the rules when they had to, and make the stuff fast with what they had. Not many people could do it. Now you have a class of people who when they get stuck on some problem, or run out of talent trying to make something run they cry for rule changes. If this stuff is too hard or expensive maybe the class isn't for you. Bracket racing is alive and well, GO DO IT. Don't lobby for rule changes because you can't make your situation any better.

Jeff is a good guy, and has a cool car. But his hobby seems to be to try to get rule changes in our class when he is not racing. He got us aftermarket Disc brakes, he was trying to get Solid lifters for everyone because it's just better. Now he is in Super Stock, I don't hear much about rule changes in that class, but still for ours. this stuff has to stop. Draw a line in the sand already and lets race.
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:19 PM   #26
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

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Originally Posted by Todd Hoven View Post
"By the way, I have dyno'd engines with both stamped and roller rockers and the power gains are insignificant or null. The main issue is reliability."

Right, and when we have 8800 RPM big blocks in A and AA we will need bigger tires and other things. Do you think with roller rockers guys will run 350 on the seat and 7 or 800 open on there valve train? I'm sure of it. You will see more power. Back in the day the guys that ran good in stock and superstock were the ones that could look at the rule book work within it and bend the rules when they had to, and make the stuff fast with what they had. Not many people could do it. Now you have a class of people who when they get stuck on some problem, or run out of talent trying to make something run they cry for rule changes. If this stuff is too hard or expensive maybe the class isn't for you. Bracket racing is alive and well, GO DO IT. Don't lobby for rule changes because you can't make your situation any better.

Jeff is a good guy, and has a cool car. But his hobby seems to be to try to get rule changes in our class when he is not racing. He got us aftermarket Disc brakes, he was trying to get Solid lifters for everyone because it's just better. Now he is in Super Stock, I don't hear much about rule changes in that class, but still for ours. this stuff has to stop. Draw a line in the sand already and lets race.
Todd...why do you isolate this to A and AA class big blocks? I think you have a long ways to learn about race engines. The big blocks already have a great rocker arm. The racers are already using high spring pressures and the aftermarket rocker arms does not have nothing to do with allowing the use of more spring pressure. When you have an engine with hydraulic lifters, you are limited on how much spring pressure you can run even when you run Schubecks or Sherman lifters.

Are you selective in reading posts? Earlier I made it clear the problem is the QUALITY of OEM replacement rocker arms. I also shared that I have seen rocker arms failures with springs pressures of 125/290 lbs.

By the way...I did not know that Jeff Lee had the power to get rules changed...I will have a talk with him to get some rules changed!!! By the way, there were many that advocated and requested aftermarket disc brakes and the decision was made for safety reasons. The higher classs cars are running speeds that the OEM brakes were not designed for. The same for wheelie bars; after the DeArmond and other similar incidents, NHRA did not have a choice than to allow the wheelie bars.
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:39 PM   #27
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

No, you WON"T be able to raise spring pressures, UNLESS you get stud girdles to go with the roller rockers. The 7/16" stud will STILL be the weak point. Note that the ONLY difference between the Holroyd setup and the older 7/16" stuff is the STUD DIAMETER. The rocker is made of the same material, the same thickness, and the same heat treat. In fact, the rocker ball itself is thinner, and material is REMOVED where the ball rides in the rocker to allow for the larger stud. We've done some serious testing, and we've also done full failure analysis on failed rockers. The fast 396 cars already turn 8200 or more now. We already run enough spring pressure, we can control all the profile you can generate for an 0.842" lifter. Put roller rockers on a fast big block car and watch the studs start breaking, unless you get stud girdles as well. It doesn't matter whether the stud or the rocker breaks, the damage will be close to the same.

Shaft rocker engines are a different situation all together, especially if they have large diameter lifters. With the rules allowing big pushrods, if you allow roller rockers, they'll be on 8620 bar stock shafts. Put that setup on top of large diameter lifters, combined with big or multiple carburetors and you'll REALLY see something happen.

I hate to see racers scrounging for used parts, I don't want to see cars parked because you just can't get any parts. But roller rockers are not the solution, at least not one that we can live with.
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Old 05-26-2008, 11:03 PM   #28
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Cool Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

Jeff + SSDiv 6,

Do we really need more changes now ? I have to agree with Todd, why did we vote for Reps? If NHRA or the players are going to continue to change the rules.. Lets stop all the rule changes and give the reps a chance to do something... Lets start to do a better job of enforcing the current rules , then see if we need some changes.. Between heads, pushrods, carbs, intakes and everything else that's been changed resently, I think we need a break and step back and look at what we are doing to stock... Do we really need all those aftermarket
parts, or are trying to make things too easy ?
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Old 05-27-2008, 07:55 AM   #29
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

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Originally Posted by Dave Ribeiro View Post
Jeff + SSDiv 6,

Do we really need more changes now ? I have to agree with Todd, why did we vote for Reps? If NHRA or the players are going to continue to change the rules.. Lets stop all the rule changes and give the reps a chance to do something... Lets start to do a better job of enforcing the current rules , then see if we need some changes.. Between heads, pushrods, carbs, intakes and everything else that's been changed resently, I think we need a break and step back and look at what we are doing to stock... Do we really need all those aftermarket
parts, or are trying to make things too easy ?
Dave, like I said before, I am not advocating the allowance of roller rockers. All I did was explain the reason why the request is being made by others that are experiencing rocker arm failures and the technical reasons why the rocker arms are failing. The quality of replacement parts is no longer there. With the globalization of the economy, and the manufacturing of parts overseas, we are getting inferior replacement/over the counter parts. As an example, how many good lifter companies are there left? Look at the amount of camshaft failures many are experiencing even with street use camshafts. That is the reason why I pay more for parts: I would rather pay 3 times more and get a quality Crower rod than a CAT or Eagle rod made in China.
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Old 05-27-2008, 01:51 PM   #30
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

I sure would like to think I could pick up the phone to Glendora and get rules changed to my liking but clearly, that is not the case. Regarding the disk break rule, I may have been more vocal (publicly), but many other's, including the manufacturer's, were for it. My 125 MPH D/S car and other's approaching or exceeding 130 MPH were quickly finding the limitations of OEM brakes. Would you suggest they were going to fast and just needed to slow down? I originally raced with drum brakes then progressed to disk brakes / drum (OEM) on my car. I could tell in the shut-down area more than the track when the engine was making more power, every two MPH increment made it noticeably harder to slow down the car. And when you are finally pumping the brakes to the last turn-off, keeping in mind trhere's a line between slowing from a high speed and not glazing / warping the brakes, you realize change may be neccessary.

Regarding solid lifters in Stock, I sure was vocal on that issue. Keep in mind I feel I have a right to be as vocal as I choose as I'm a member and racer in NHRA and this is a public forum. I know some feel this is just a great place for race kudo's and birthday club greeting's, but I see it as a place to voice concern's or implement opinion on change.
So on solid lifter's....nobody has yet to explain to me why it's OK to allow $500-$850 lifter's in Stock that are "quasi-hydraulic" (meaning they do nothing in resemblance to a hydraulic other than have a mere .015" plunger travel) when a $79.00 set of solid lifters will perform identically at a 962.50% savings to the racer. No, Jeff wasn't after easier or cheaper as I had already been down that road and spent thousands on various Sherman, Scubeck, Chilled-iron and modified OEM style lifters. I was after being reasonable and using logic to make it easier on everybody else.

As mentioned previously on this thread, every aspect of the Stock valve-train has been upgraded to acceptable by NHRA except the rocker arm. But hold on. That's not entirely true. Chrysler racers have enjoyed the use of Isky ductile iron adjustable rockers for years on all V-8 engines. Ford Clevland & 429/460 racers have been using roller bearing rocker folcrum's in Stock for years. Both examples having never been assembly line installed as an OEM part as required by NHRA. Not that I'm aware of anyway. Following the logic which allowed Isky rockers on the MOPAR's, the SBF (289/302/351W) racer's should be allowed the use of SVT aluminum roller rockers in Stock as it was an OEM rocker on the '93 Cobra engine. Could the same argument apply to the SBC as the LT4 and LS family utilizes roller rockers?
So there are two issues as far as I am concerned. One is equality. If MOPAR racer's enjoy superior non-OEM rockers, then so should everybody else. Second, if NHRA allows basically a stock-lift Superstock valve-train from the rocker arm on down, then finish the job. (Alan, I believe the Holyrod stud is Stainless or other quality material). In my opinion it should be all stock (valve-train) or all modified at the racer's discretion with limitations that the installation resemble OEM construction, i.e., any stud mounted or shaft rocker arm as applicable to OEM installation standards.
And for those that have found the magic solution already, great, good job. The proposal is not that roller rockers should be mandatory, just an alternative. Same with taperd, large diameter pushrods, and guide-plates, and beehive springs, and Schubecks....
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