Single channel O2 - Page 4

Ed Wright · 07-13-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

FAST XFI. Currently running in Alpha-N, closed loop, Target A/F at 12.5. Got it to 13.3 on Run #3 of the weekend at MIR, and it wouldn't get out of it's own way.

Question is, is 13.3 to 13.2 a big jump, is 13.3 to 13.0 a big jump, or is 13.3 to 12.5 a big jump? How much is 1,000' DA change likely to affect the A/F ratio (ballpark)?

Michael, 12.5 to 13.0 is a big jump. If you want to email me your calibration file (.gct) file and a log file of a run using it, I can probably put it to, or very close to, 12.5-1, then email it back to you.

Dan Fletcher · 07-13-2011, 02:54 PM

Thank you very much to everyone for the input. I decided to go the Racepak direction through Greg Kelley at Motor Sports Innovations. He came highly recommended from everyone I spoke to, and my phone conversations with him have been outstanding. I'm certainly looking forward to getting the system installed and finally getting my stocker lined out. I know from the comp car how valuable the Racepak is, so even though I'm only getting the Sportsman version, I'm really excited to start acquiring data. Obviously, I'm a moron for not having one before. Now I just need to break down and get one for the poor SS car...LOL...

Thanks again to all...

billy leber · 07-13-2011, 04:02 PM

Obviously...

Chad Rhodes · 07-13-2011, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Fletcher

Thank you very much to everyone for the input. I decided to go the Racepak direction through Greg Kelley at Motor Sports Innovations. He came highly recommended from everyone I spoke to, and my phone conversations with him have been outstanding. I'm certainly looking forward to getting the system installed and finally getting my stocker lined out. I know from the comp car how valuable the Racepak is, so even though I'm only getting the Sportsman version, I'm really excited to start acquiring data. Obviously, I'm a moron for not having one before. Now I just need to break down and get one for the poor SS car...LOL...

Thanks again to all...

Dan, with your record ( and the one our kids are quickly acquiring ), I don't think anyone can call you a moron.

Adger Smith · 07-13-2011, 04:24 PM

Charles,
You hit the nail on the head with your last post.
It is just Data....not written in stone... I like to use the EGT cross reference along with reading plugs. As far as customers being able to read them you are right.. Some know a little about it some know a lot and some know a lot less than they think. Most of my customers/friends are told to learn as you go. Look at the plug and make a change you think is correct (that all other data suggests). Then after the tune up change look at the plug and see what changed. They should learn trends and what to expect. Like you said...Reading the plug Keeps the tune up honest..
Let's talk "Air" ...
Someone has mentioned DA, a lot. Well I'm not so sure all your faith should be put in DA. Doesn't everyone know you can get the same DA by having several totally different conditions? (Baro, Vapor Pressure, Humidity, Temps, ect..) It's when the conditions change that the engine goes from lean or rich or rich to lean. A good carb tuner knows he has a slight window that the carb will take care of when conditions change, a little, but not when they move a lot. I've always worked with mechanical FI that is Stupid. It only changes when you make the change or the pump is going away and you loose pressure, volume or both.....
This could be a good discussion..
OK What you guys say???
Beard, do you remember when we got bitten when we forgot to monitor the vapor pressure? :~)

Ed Wright · 07-13-2011, 06:25 PM

Different brands of wide bands often don't read the same. Different engine combos don't want the same air/fuel ratio. My 358" SS engine with VP C11 likes 12.6 to 12.8, my old 383" 14.25-1 compression bracket engine on VP C12 likes 13.3-1 to 13.4-1, all according to my FAST XFI, and my old DynoJet dyno wire band agreed.

The LM1, LM2, LC1 stuff that came through my shop (kids installed them in their cars) were all over the place, some showed richer than mine, some leaner.

BigStuff3 systems agreed with my dyno wide band also. You just need to know what your car likes according to your wide band.

Like Adger said, it's just data. Only a reference.

LNorton · 07-13-2011, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

Ultimately, you have to listen to what the car is telling you on the race track to determine what A/F ratio works best for YOUR setup. Took me til 1st round of eliminations this weekend to figure that out! LOL

You'll get there buddy! And ultimately you will be better off in the end getting there yourself and learning than sending it off to someone else to get tuned up.

One thing I always stress is to pull the plugs to verify O2 readings.

Charles Rainey · 07-13-2011, 10:37 PM

Adger
Data is one of the greatest things to come along in the last 10 years. I can remember when all we had was plug reading and a feel for what the weather conditions were and what was needed. Data, if correct, can make the changes much easier to anticipate. Nothing ticks me off more than when some one uses data to let them do something they had already made up their mind to do and they just wanted an excuse to do it. You can make numbers come out the way you want them if you want to. But if used properly they also can make our jobs so much more easy. that is one of the reason I keep a test gas canister near me when running O2. Keep it honest

Adger Smith · 07-13-2011, 11:02 PM

Charles,
You are so right about using Data to do what you wanted to do. there is quite a lot of that going on. I'll never forget the first race where I helped tune a car with a RacePac....It was a long time ago. The owner was well healed and this was the first RP I had even seen. I had only read about them in ND.
That first night it taught us all a thing or two!! Racing wasn't the same, less cut and try, until 1991 when we first got the Super flow dyno... Talk about Data overload...
Well so much for the stroll down memory lane.
I do want to mention one other thing about using 02's to tune. Last year when I was doing Tech at the Engine Masters I noticed quite a few of engine guys tuned only with the 02.
You know that is O.K., but there was a problem with the fuel (that is another story) and most engines were running in detonation. You could watch and tell who the old school tuners were.
As a Tech Inspector I couldn't say anything to help the participants and it hurt me to watch the results of tuning an engine in detonation with a 02 sensor. If it detonates do yourself a favor and throw that data away. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the type sensor, but they can read some nasty nox when the engine detonates and give false readings. Learning to read plugs and crossreference data is important. OK, thanks for reading my ramble..... It's time to wash this nasty hone oil smell off and get in bed.

tuffxf · 07-13-2011, 11:29 PM

G,day Adger,
I'm not in you guys league at all, noticed a few posts ago about wanting to talk about air / da.
Would be interesting to keep this going i think!
used to race a petrol powered car over here in s/st and car would move .01/100 ft of da change, bet your life on it, was probably a bit fat but was very predictable.
Last major meeting of the 08/09 season that we won car ran on the numbers throughout qualifying, first round of racing had a red light in the other lane and run it through and ran a mile quicker, couldn't get my head around it untill i looked at the water grains, seemed to play a large part in it.
Have now converted to a carbed methanol deal and the water content seems to be a bigger thing than anything else?
When you were talking about watching guys tune with an 02 whilst having detonation what sort of things were you getting at? Just trying to learn here thanks

Charles - i have a daytona sensors wego3, what do you think of them? pm me if you like, the only thing that gets me a bit about it is you can't turn the logging on or off ( unless there is a feature i don't know about) and when you set the sample rate fine and have a car that you drive back to the pits, long return roads, stuck behind slow traffic etc when you go to down load it you find you have used up the recording time with the travelling back to the pits,
At small local tracks with a short return road it works ok.
Thanks!
Paul Dilley

07-13-2011, 02:54 PM	#32
Dan Fletcher Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Churchville, NY Posts: 483 Likes: 108 Liked 963 Times in 61 Posts	Re: Single channel O2 Thank you very much to everyone for the input. I decided to go the Racepak direction through Greg Kelley at Motor Sports Innovations. He came highly recommended from everyone I spoke to, and my phone conversations with him have been outstanding. I'm certainly looking forward to getting the system installed and finally getting my stocker lined out. I know from the comp car how valuable the Racepak is, so even though I'm only getting the Sportsman version, I'm really excited to start acquiring data. Obviously, I'm a moron for not having one before. Now I just need to break down and get one for the poor SS car...LOL... Thanks again to all... __________________ Dan Fletcher 1781 STK, SS, COMP, SG, SC DAN FLETCHER TRAILER SALES

07-13-2011, 04:02 PM	#33
billy leber Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: most places Posts: 211 Likes: 0 Liked 10 Times in 1 Post	Re: Single channel O2 Obviously... __________________ Billy Leber 1150 SS, 1050 SG, 1962 STK, 185 SC

07-13-2011, 04:24 PM	#35
Adger Smith VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texarkana Ark/TX Posts: 2,348 Likes: 434 Liked 677 Times in 261 Posts	Re: Single channel O2 Charles, You hit the nail on the head with your last post. It is just Data....not written in stone... I like to use the EGT cross reference along with reading plugs. As far as customers being able to read them you are right.. Some know a little about it some know a lot and some know a lot less than they think. Most of my customers/friends are told to learn as you go. Look at the plug and make a change you think is correct (that all other data suggests). Then after the tune up change look at the plug and see what changed. They should learn trends and what to expect. Like you said...Reading the plug Keeps the tune up honest.. Let's talk "Air" ... Someone has mentioned DA, a lot. Well I'm not so sure all your faith should be put in DA. Doesn't everyone know you can get the same DA by having several totally different conditions? (Baro, Vapor Pressure, Humidity, Temps, ect..) It's when the conditions change that the engine goes from lean or rich or rich to lean. A good carb tuner knows he has a slight window that the carb will take care of when conditions change, a little, but not when they move a lot. I've always worked with mechanical FI that is Stupid. It only changes when you make the change or the pump is going away and you loose pressure, volume or both..... This could be a good discussion.. OK What you guys say??? Beard, do you remember when we got bitten when we forgot to monitor the vapor pressure? :~) __________________ Adger Smith (Former SS)

07-13-2011, 06:25 PM	#36
Ed Wright Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sand Springs, OK Posts: 8,132 Likes: 896 Liked 389 Times in 168 Posts	Re: Single channel O2 Different brands of wide bands often don't read the same. Different engine combos don't want the same air/fuel ratio. My 358" SS engine with VP C11 likes 12.6 to 12.8, my old 383" 14.25-1 compression bracket engine on VP C12 likes 13.3-1 to 13.4-1, all according to my FAST XFI, and my old DynoJet dyno wire band agreed. The LM1, LM2, LC1 stuff that came through my shop (kids installed them in their cars) were all over the place, some showed richer than mine, some leaner. BigStuff3 systems agreed with my dyno wide band also. You just need to know what your car likes according to your wide band. Like Adger said, it's just data. Only a reference. __________________ Ed Wright 4156 SS/JA

07-13-2011, 10:37 PM	#38
Charles Rainey Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 40 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Single channel O2 Adger Data is one of the greatest things to come along in the last 10 years. I can remember when all we had was plug reading and a feel for what the weather conditions were and what was needed. Data, if correct, can make the changes much easier to anticipate. Nothing ticks me off more than when some one uses data to let them do something they had already made up their mind to do and they just wanted an excuse to do it. You can make numbers come out the way you want them if you want to. But if used properly they also can make our jobs so much more easy. that is one of the reason I keep a test gas canister near me when running O2. Keep it honest

07-13-2011, 11:02 PM	#39
Adger Smith VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texarkana Ark/TX Posts: 2,348 Likes: 434 Liked 677 Times in 261 Posts	Re: Single channel O2 Charles, You are so right about using Data to do what you wanted to do. there is quite a lot of that going on. I'll never forget the first race where I helped tune a car with a RacePac....It was a long time ago. The owner was well healed and this was the first RP I had even seen. I had only read about them in ND. That first night it taught us all a thing or two!! Racing wasn't the same, less cut and try, until 1991 when we first got the Super flow dyno... Talk about Data overload... Well so much for the stroll down memory lane. I do want to mention one other thing about using 02's to tune. Last year when I was doing Tech at the Engine Masters I noticed quite a few of engine guys tuned only with the 02. You know that is O.K., but there was a problem with the fuel (that is another story) and most engines were running in detonation. You could watch and tell who the old school tuners were. As a Tech Inspector I couldn't say anything to help the participants and it hurt me to watch the results of tuning an engine in detonation with a 02 sensor. If it detonates do yourself a favor and throw that data away. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the type sensor, but they can read some nasty nox when the engine detonates and give false readings. Learning to read plugs and crossreference data is important. OK, thanks for reading my ramble..... It's time to wash this nasty hone oil smell off and get in bed. __________________ Adger Smith (Former SS)

07-13-2011, 11:29 PM	#40
tuffxf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 36 Likes: 2 Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Single channel O2 G,day Adger, I'm not in you guys league at all, noticed a few posts ago about wanting to talk about air / da. Would be interesting to keep this going i think! used to race a petrol powered car over here in s/st and car would move .01/100 ft of da change, bet your life on it, was probably a bit fat but was very predictable. Last major meeting of the 08/09 season that we won car ran on the numbers throughout qualifying, first round of racing had a red light in the other lane and run it through and ran a mile quicker, couldn't get my head around it untill i looked at the water grains, seemed to play a large part in it. Have now converted to a carbed methanol deal and the water content seems to be a bigger thing than anything else? When you were talking about watching guys tune with an 02 whilst having detonation what sort of things were you getting at? Just trying to learn here thanks Charles - i have a daytona sensors wego3, what do you think of them? pm me if you like, the only thing that gets me a bit about it is you can't turn the logging on or off ( unless there is a feature i don't know about) and when you set the sample rate fine and have a car that you drive back to the pits, long return roads, stuck behind slow traffic etc when you go to down load it you find you have used up the recording time with the travelling back to the pits, At small local tracks with a short return road it works ok. Thanks! Paul Dilley