NHRA changes needed for next year-add on

[Irv Johns]

DAVE: I think you have hit the nail on the HEAD. Well said...
Irv Johns

[Dick Butler]

Dave and Irv Thanks for the respectful response. I had noticed many have voiced a wish to run their cars more often as a class car, heads up and feared the changes out west where Open events are purely bracket with no heads up. Seems expensive to run a Bracket race with a "class" car.
I was offering my thoughts on how current racers could get to race class style more often and from the personal responses from those who run TOP/STK in Div 1 and 3 and the Jr Stk, and TOP/S it is worth the effort.
Thanks again.
Dick

[Dick Butler]

Irv, Do you think there would be interest in a TOP/GT type race?

[Ron Ortiz]

First off, this site is designed for anybody to post, racer, spectator, sponsor, NHRA, etc. If you guys want to bitch about only racers should have their say, then post on the "racers only" section of this site.

Next, take a real good look at all the past "class eliminations results" in National Dragster. You will notice that there is alot of bye runs, and a whole bunch of classes with only two cars competing. The only heavily populated classes are the A, B, F, G, H. All the slower classes are way less populated. So, if you take the less populated slower classes and combine them for more heads up runs, you will have a larger spread of variation of ET's, therefore forcing out alot of competitors whose combinations might be tweaked already to it's highest point. Now you have reduced the car count and we are back to square one. Heck if you combined L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, T, and U, you'll end up with 5 or 6 cars on the average. The classes are set up so it covers alot of combinations, whether someone wants to run a Chevy or a Ford, or a Chrysler, 6 cylinder, 8 cylinder, there is a class for them to compete in.

The one thing that I notice most of all, is that it appears that the individuals that want to combine classes are the faster class competitors. Well, take Mr. Butler's venue and leave the rest of us alone.

And don't give me that crap about the dwindling sponsors until you can answer two questions.
1) How much annually does an aftermarket company have to post to be included as a class winner sponsor?
2) How much actually goes into the racers pocket?

For all you in favor of combining classes for more heads up runs, and the excitment, build an A or B car.

Kieth Anderson posted, One change....NO class when only one car, hey, I know, you should not be faulted for building a odd combo, but get real, you run a single for class, while a guy has to win at least one or more rounds to win his class, is that fair.

Well Mr. Anderson, why don't you come on down to U/SA and join in the fun and populate our class so we can get real.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA see ya all on both portions of this site.

[Dick Butler]

Ron Good points about where to post etc. Thanks
Seems you do agree about the value of a bye run. I agree not fair to tell someone who works hard, shows up and has spent his cash you cant run because you are a single car class.
I am confused about the combining lower classes though. If you allow cars to remove wt to hit the class minimum and his hp is the same not sure why you think the ets will be that off. Maybe because of factoring problems to begin with?
Bottom line everyone is important to our S and SS racing. Tune up the AHFS ?
We would love to include GT in TOP/SS but with no light class its too big a stretch for the GT/AA cars to get that light or competitive. New Mustangs, New Camaros and Challengers would help the "show" value.
I would really like to have a Mid SS class heads up with Gt, and SS cars all running. Tough part is the hard part dealing with the factoring based on body style, trans, car color etc which has happened. Might be interesting but we had to start somewhere and hoped to attract the AH LARGE number of cars to join sooner rather than later.
Mid or Jr Stk will hit the bigger numbers of cars like Div1.
Final Question is would you like to have the opportunity to run your fellow class racers more often?
U/SA shoot out idea was awesome for Belle Rose two years ago.That kind of fun is what would be great in more classes.

[Lynn A McCarty]

1.) Aftermarket casting's improvement addressed with real numbers.

2.) If an aftermarket casting exists then acceptance given due consideration HP assigned where appropriate to gain reasonable access for racers.

3.) AHFS done with an engine family curve with upper and lower limits established using valid statistical methods (Upper limits are not to be compared to averages, the current method statistically invalid.)

4.) HP factors assigned to engines based on statistical curves (High School Statistics)

5.) HP adders be done with real numbers. (10 years of constant 4-6HP doesn't cut it. One engine actually got 5HP off, and then subsequently 18HP added, how so? )

6.) Bogus intake runner cc numbers all evaluated. (Some divisions gave away as many as 38 ccs over stock, many routinely gave 10-15ccs, others got 1cc, zero parity in this give away)

7.) 1.0 weight breaks in stock and super stock(0.5 breaks added only when it makes sense)(percentage weight adder for sticks to combine with automatics. This must be evaluated for a sliding scale relative to cubic inches.) GT cars to start at 7.0 New GT class at 6.0 for old hypo factory engines only (Boss 429's, Hemis, High Riser Fords, LT-1 SBC, L-88's, Tunnel Port Fords, Tunnel Port Pontiacs, AMC dual quads, W-30 Olds, Stage II Buicks, 440 6pacs, 421 Pontiac SDs, 340 6-PACs, others? (all aftermarket heads/blocks all accepted to keep cost down.)

8.) Porting allowed in stock with no epoxy or welding. Alum heads compared for angle milling, welding with a stock casing for compliance. CC rule applies (This will only work if cc numbers are completely redone)

9.) If race is limited on entry, then only one car entry allowed per driver(second driver same team, ok).

10.) Heads up racing all Events only if 1-7 is followed. All cars run class, if no class opponent, then they run against the others against their index no breakout. (regular eliminator to follow on Sunday, these runs can be substituted for practice runs if need be)

11.) Tech done on protest with Real money to protest, and do it right. Cheating will stop instantly, racers wont protest unless they are willing to lose the big cash, and racers found legal will go home compensated. Records, random compliance done as time, weather conditions, personnel is allowed.

12.) HP committee to be made up of Engine Builders, Racers, NHRA officials in equal numbers. Minutes taken and published.

Advantages:

Parity
Compliance
Return to performance, possible sponsor involvement(all left to support NMCA, NMRA etc)
Maintain bracket Eliminator
Less time/more excitement
Fan approval
Return of way cool performance cars now deleted from competition

Not getting all the cool cars/engines back into action is punishable by 30 minutes of listening to Biden, Hillary, and Odumass argue what they wont do in Pakistan. A horrible fate for anyone with an IQ over 50.

Lynn

[Super Sport]

Everyones personal agenda will have to wait till 2009. Unless they were submitted "IN WRITING" to NHRA prior to July 30th, they are just talk. How do I know this? Last week I called Glendora with an idea for Stock. I was told 2008 rule changes are now in committee and are being fine tuned.

P.S. to Dick and Lynn, You guys did to put your ideas in writing and sent them directly to NHRA didn't you?

[Dick Butler]

Yes, Thanks I did.
I know many people have not had the time to submit the ideas they support but part of my selling my cars and limiting my personal racing has been to work towards getting some of the issues presented here in writing for NHRA committees to discuss and raising all the prize money I have been able to give out to the racers in TOP/SS and TOP/STK.
50$ entry at TOP/SS level has paid over $2000 to run 3 rounds. Pretty good money and a LOT of fun. R/U got $1000 or more. First round winners at least won entry and usually $100.
Remember that everyone has a way they like to race, Heads up class, or dial in. Both should continue to be a part of the program so everyone can have their way to race.
It seems an effort to stand up for Heads up S and SS racing has to be put forward or without input to the committees they will "assume" Sportsman Heads up Class racing isnt important to anyone including the racers. There has been comment to that effect from some people regarding spectator interest in S and SS racing. In my opinion Recreate the Class racing day excitement of Many full classes with 6 or 8 cars and the Spectators will return (if advertised)
Disclaimer: A non racer trying to help Class racers get more times to race class again.

[Rich Biebel]

For the UMTEENTH TIME Stock& Super Stock racing nearly died in the 70's due to a number of things. One of them is HEADS-UP racing. Right now car counts are high in some divisions but promote changes that make heads-up races more likely and those same car counts will dwindle. Young guys racing with 2 steps and buttons can win.....old guys with piles of money can't dominate.....keep harping on the heads-up form of racing and pretty soon it will look like SS eliminator in 1975...NOBODY SHOWS UP. You can't sell heads-up racing to anyone but a select few that want it and can afford it. What is the car count for Top Stock or Top SS? I know how many cars run Top stock and Jr. Stock around here. Is it fun? I'm sure it is because nothing beats a heads-up race but if that is all there was going on racing in Stock and SS would be DEAD! I have an EFI stocker. It is not nearly as fast as some others in the class. If you are successful in lobbying for changes that make it like the "old days"...I would be out of this category quickly. Win class or qualify in order to have a chance to win an eliminator...NO THANKS. Work endlessly and spend piles of money to keep up with the class leaders, NO THANKS. I can work now to try and get my car better. All the while I still can go to a race knowing I can still actually win. Under the Dick Butler promoted version of Stock or Super Stock I cannot. You will lose countless participants promoting this form of racing and gain very little in sponsor and spectator appeal. The clock cannot be turned backwards. Car companies are not coming back to support drag racing. Sponsors kick in a few dollars here and there for various races but for the most part they are backing other categories. Why? If you don't know why your not being realistic. Open one edition of Nat'l Dragster and count how many ads are aimed at various categories of cars OTHER than Stock and SS........How many 500+ cube engines do Stockers need? Answer NONE......How many sets of Big Duke heads do SS'ers need? answer NONE. How many delay boxes can All of Stock and SS buy and use legally...answer NONE...are you getting the pictiure now Dick...sorry but I think I had to many beers watching the Nascar race...pretty cool though with Harvick and Montoya almost going at it!!!!!!!

[Rich Biebel]

Originally Posted by Rod Sintheblock

Thats a pretty good post that you just made there dude!

Thanks...I get wound up and keep in mind I didn't just fall off a turnip truck! 5 beers and I get pretty tuned up and like to say what I think.......I got more and it's cold!