Is NHR Cursed or Something ?

[Rich Biebel]

Chris...Try this.....Plan to race the car somewhere where there is no long drive with some kind of basically insane amount of time to get there. Race it locally where there is no pressure. There is no fuel check and no weight check and all you need to do is show up.....ON TIME and pass tech. Make as many runs as you can. If the computer or the tune up is wrong.....well forgive me but you need a new "tuner" because it should sure as hell go down the racetrack if you dyno'ed the thing. Get enough battery power in the car along with a working alternator.......There is no reason an EFI car can't go up and down the racetrack numerous times with minimal difficulty and without a dead battery. My LT-1 Firebird did with one battery and an alternator. Never had a problem. I tuned my own ECU.....No dyno....Basically no help from anyone on the tuneup. I can't see why what you have should be that much more complicated.
You had professional help in the tuneup area.....so I am wondering why there are so many problems cropping up.....

In the old days we raced our cars locally to get it as good as we could long before we ever went to say a National event. Of course there were very few national events but it makes very little sense to go to a national event and struggle with things you should have sorted out locally. Of course it's your choice to do anything you wish.......it's your time and money......

My advice....race it locally as much as possible to get it right and get the driver(s) comfortable........

[Don Kennedy]

Greg : all of them

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

If the computer or the tune up is wrong.....well forgive me but you need a new "tuner" because it should sure as hell go down the racetrack if you dyno'ed the thing.

Well, hitting and loosing collectors and being pushed off dosent wring out on the dyno, bad grounds, and other mechanical gremlins dont have anything to do with the tuner.

Get enough battery power in the car along with a working alternator.......There is no reason an EFI car can't go up and down the racetrack numerous times with minimal difficulty and without a dead battery.

At both Norwalk we had like 25 starts and runs to scales, fuel, tech etc and was only a nostart once, the last time, when it counted, after our collector fell off....AND You draw an immense amount less current...... we have what equates to 16 individual coild (8 COP packs with 2 windings) with 20 Amp Igniters....I can promise we suck on the average 2-3 times the juice of a single coild system at 120kv....that Ive got scope outs of.

I tuned my own ECU.....No dyno....Basically no help from anyone on the tuneup. I can't see why what you have should be that much more complicated.

The 10.59 pass was a tune I worked on from the 6.1 Dyno results. It was my tune.

You had professional help in the tuneup area.....so I am wondering why there are so many problems cropping up.....

The only issues have been the addition of new elements, 2 and 3 step. Those have in part been driver error in part other things, but they were new and failed after being tested, they have been changed and will be test

My advice....race it locally as much as possible to get it right and get the driver(s) comfortable

Agreed 100% thats also why Im removing myself from the driving pool except in case of emergency. It will give him more seat time and allow me to concentrate on the above items soley.

In the next 2 weeks before Tenn, we plan to do just that, run the snot out of it, locally....

[Rich Biebel]

[QUOTE=Chris "drooze" Wertman;190287][I]tuner.


we have what equates to 16 individual coild (8 COP packs with 2 windings) with 20 Amp Igniters....I can promise we suck on the average 2-3 times the juice of a single coild system at 120kv....that Ive got scope outs of





QUOTE]


No way all those coils are firing at the same time........they fire sequentially with the firing order.....or am I missing something......One MSD hi output coil vs 16? firing sequentially.......basically low current draw for short periods of time on 16? coils, probably not all that much higher overall amp draw than one continuous high output coil....,,Ever see the output of an MSD coil at about 6000-7000rpm? I have an MSD tester and it allows you to fire your ignition without running the engine......at any rpm. You can almost cut metal with the arc it can produce.....If I could add air to it and ionize it.....VIOLA.....Plasma Cutter........

[John Kelley]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm......... :-)

http://www.racingjunk.com/category/3...y-Package.html

[art leong]

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

Chris...Try this.....Plan to race the car somewhere where there is no long drive with some kind of basically insane amount of time to get there. Race it locally where there is no pressure. There is no fuel check and no weight check and all you need to do is show up.....ON TIME and pass tech. Make as many runs as you can. If the computer or the tune up is wrong.....well forgive me but you need a new "tuner" because it should sure as hell go down the racetrack if you dyno'ed the thing. Get enough battery power in the car along with a working alternator.......There is no reason an EFI car can't go up and down the racetrack numerous times with minimal difficulty and without a dead battery. My LT-1 Firebird did with one battery and an alternator. Never had a problem. I tuned my own ECU.....No dyno....Basically no help from anyone on the tuneup. I can't see why what you have should be that much more complicated.
You had professional help in the tuneup area.....so I am wondering why there are so many problems cropping up.....

In the old days we raced our cars locally to get it as good as we could long before we ever went to say a National event. Of course there were very few national events but it makes very little sense to go to a national event and struggle with things you should have sorted out locally. Of course it's your choice to do anything you wish.......it's your time and money......

My advice....race it locally as much as possible to get it right and get the driver(s) comfortable........

Rich, these fuel injected coil over plug cars do strange things with voltage. I know nothing about the Drag Pak cars.
But on my little 4 cylinder. Coil over plug car, I need the alternator working to get the most out of the car. And I have a full sized battery up front, good grounds in multiple places, etc.
If I turn off the alternator I lose a couple of hundred rpms. I tried this driving on the return road and its like hitting the brakes. If I run without the alternator on I lose 1 1/2 tenths.
Even with the alternator on I lose a almost a tenth by leaving the electric fans on.
The ECU is supposed to work at 11.5 volts (which it never gets down to).
It just does the opposite of what you would expect. Small motor, low horsepower, I swore the alternator would slow me down. But it is the opposite.
And I A-B-A tested it a few times. I believe it has something to do with the coil over plug.
voltage requirements.

[Nitro Joe Jackson]

if you spent as much time with the car as you do writing and talking all this stuff on the computer i think you would be going -2 seconds under. lol
Like i said before all the PPPPP's

Good luck, and no curse just need to walk before you run, lol

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

No way all those coils are firing at the same time........they fire sequentially with the firing order.....or am I missing something......One MSD hi output coil vs 16? firing sequentially.......basically low current draw for short periods of time on 16? coils, probably not all that much higher overall amp draw than one continuous high output coil....,,Ever see the output of an MSD coil at about 6000-7000rpm? I have an MSD tester and it allows you to fire your ignition without running the engine......at any rpm. You can almost cut metal with the arc it can produce.....If I could add air to it and ionize it.....VIOLA.....Plasma Cutter........[/QUOTE]

No we charge 1 coil PACK, which has 2 windings in it, WE light em with 20 amp igniters, most others 8amp, but at 9k WE can also throw a full arc across a .070 gap if we want without blowing out.

Of course we only fire 1 cyl at a time, in order......

So Im firing 2 coils for every cyl fire, AND Im using 20amp igniters, hence I said, 2 to 3 times.....The stock coils fire at about 40kv we are kicking em off at over 90kv. In addition we have a 1 farad buffer capacitor for the igniton system.

One of the BIG problems is there are no aftermarket coils suitable to anything other than 40kv, now Irv Johns and Doug Duell have proven this is adequate, BUT both have also found out that without 16v systems the cars run like crap, cut out and have start issues, both started with 12v systems.....(I may be wrong about Irv, he may be runnign 2 12v batteries) And we have the abilty and do turn our motor over 8k....

I WANTED to run 16 LS2 "Yukon" coils at 120kv but, well since the rule is "Stock Number of Coils" well....they are looking at that rule since it was intended to keep COP people from going to single coils not the other way around.

So, trust me on this 2-3x the draw is correct....Ive got a 3 inch stack of scope outputs from the car that leave no question.......

We had issues caused by other things that at one point we thought was a result of EM interference from this "Maximum Overkill" solution of mine, but it was a "quick and dirty" setup that leaves no issues on the ignition side.

Make sense ?

If I thought I was firing all the coils every cyl fire I would have said 16 or 20x the current draw....

[Rich Biebel]

OK Chris,.....but in my old feeble mind.....all your really doing is the same thing as every other internal combustion engine with a battery powered ignition. Fire the spark at the right time with enough intensity to get a good flamefront. Hemi or not....it is moderate compression, not supercharged or turbo charged and is burning race gas. It doesn't really need anymore than any other engine. If your coils are overkill....your just wasting energy......A blisteringly hot spark is not going to make it run way faster than an adequate spark.

My Lt-1 had an MSD 7al and the box went bad. I installed a Digital 6 and the recommended coil.......The spark it could generate was as I said......more than enough to fire any sparkplug in any stocker engine........


Art.....I have no doubt your combination is somewhat different but it's a Turbo and a small engine......so I would think it is very sensitive to small changes.......


I have a story I can tell about MSD's needing a minimum of xx volts to fire but just to make the story short........lets just say that I have made runs down the race track with a very low battery and no misfires whatsoever.......One of those runs was the final round of a National event......

[NewHemi]

Hey Rich, I am interested...

Tell us about it.

I am serious, it sounds like a good story.

David
The New Hemi Guy