Best Pontiac Powered Stockers

[oldskool]

Well ya'll, I need to apologize, again.

Just spent an hour or more cruising back thru this thread. I was going up thru the Firebird years, and pretty much stopped, while talking mostly about the '71-'73 models.

Occasionally mentioned some '74 models. But, never got into a lot of detail about any of 'em. Just got sidetracked, I suppose.

I must talk about one in particular. I mentioned that it was a record holder, & even posted 3 record certificates for it, in J/SA, K/SA, & L/SA, along with a few pics. But, I need to post some race results showing the awesome performance this car had, at the time.

The car, of course, is the Mulry & Aceves '74 Bird. Here are a few of it's #1 qualifying efforts. There were probably many others I don't know about. But, these will show what I mean.

#1 @ - 1.599

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2008#indextop

#1 @ - 1.579

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=15141

#1 @ - 1.502

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=62948

#1 @ - 1.437

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=22233

#1 @ - 1.431

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=25692

#1 @ - 1.413

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=19620

#1 @ - 1.354

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=10411

#1 @ - 1.106

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=2733

Indy K/SA winner.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=2310

#4 @ Indy with a - 1.274.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=2312

Well, I think ya'll get the pic. This car was awesome !

As a side note, since this is a Pontiac Stocker thread, I think I count at least a dozen Pontiac V8 powered Stockers that made that 128 car '04 Indy field !

[oldskool]

Another nice '74 was the one Lindy Lindholm raced. It's the one that was stolen.

It qualified well at lots of races.

Let's start with a #1 @ the 2017 Winter Nats. Was the only car to qualify a sec under. Hey, I understand sandbaggin. But, it looks good to be #1 on the list. And lots of guys here are quick to congratulate some racers for being #1.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2017#indextop

At the '15 Pomona Finals, he was 1.014 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2015#indextop

#5 @ the '16 Winter Nats - 1.020 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

Won class at this & many other races.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

#4 & I/SA class winner @ the '16 Vegas Denso Nats.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

Highest qualified Pontiac & class winner @ Toyota Nats.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop

It was still running more than .900 under, last Sept. I suppose that if it hadn't been stolen, Lindy would still be racing it.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

[oldskool]

Tho not as quick against their index, there are still at least 3 active '74 Bird Stockers, that I know of. And I may as well include Gary Riley's '74 wagon.

I think I've probably already mentioned all these cars. But, I'll mention them again here, to point out that the '74 4X head 400 is & has long been a very competitive engine.

I'm reminded of the recent final round at the Mile-High Nats. It pitted Dwaine Davis in his '74 Formula, against Gary Riley in his '74 Lemans wagon. Gary won.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

Then there is the Burton's "Grimace" '74 Formy, which recently made it's debut.

And, there is the '74 T/A which is sponsored by John Clegg's Mission Garage, & is said to have been built by Forest Pierdolla. I think this T/A still runs an SD455 engine. Not sure.

I suppose a '74 Bird could run a 400, a D-port 455, or if you don't mind running the high dollar SD heads, you could run the SD455.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...1&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

That D-port 455 looks good, at the current 306hp factor. That engine has proven very competitive in several '73 Birds. No reason it wouldn't do just as well in a '74 model. Don't really know if the D-port 455 would be more competitive at 306hp, than the 400 @ 275hp.

I do know that Michael Brand switched from the D-port 455 to the SD455, in his '73 Bird. It doesn't seem to be running as far under it's index, now. So, unless there is quite a bit of yet-to-be-found power in that SD engine, it appears that the D-port engine MAY be more competitive, at the current hp factors. Maybe we'll get to see if Michael can get a lower ET from his SD combo this year. Because of the rarity & price of those SD heads, I'd say there is not much experimenting that could be done.

But, with the 4X D-port heads, a guy should be able to search for more power, from the heads. Because of the big chambers, many of those 455 4X heads have been junked. Those that remain are not in high demand. So, there should be some available for a decent price.

Because of the legality of adding & removing weight, in order to change classes, I don't always know which engine all the Pontiacs are running.

Looked up some Q-list numbers for Dwaine Davis & the Mission Garage '74 Bird. The times are usually a half sec under, or better. Both cars were at this div 4 race. Dwaine was .827 under, & Hunter was .755 under. Won't win all the heads-up races, but can win all other rounds.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2018#indextop

Jeremy Romero ran .929 under in "Grimace". I assume that might win a few heads-up runs.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

So, I'll have to say that a '74 Pontiac is a decent model Stocker to run.

[oldskool]

For '75 model Pontiac Stockers, I can only think of 1 that is still active.

Up in the Northwest, Ryan Warter has a '75 Formy. Has been racing it for quite a while. Hasn't been long since he won the nat event up there, his 1st. It was an All-Pontiac final against Randi Lyn.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop

He was .940 under at this div 6 race.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

May '16 - div 6 Nat Open doubleheader - Won 1st race - made semi-final in 2nd race !

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=62151

6/5/16 - div 6-3 - #1 - 1.066 under

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

8/7/16 - NW Nats - Stock R/U, in another All-Pontiac nat event final !

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

9/17/16 - Stock Challenge - Winner, in another All-Pontiac final, against Brad Burton, again !

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

8/6/17 - NW Nats - 3rd place - But hey, he had a pretty good 3-year run, at the NW Nats !

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

5/4/19 - div 6-1 - #2 - 1.129 under

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

[oldskool]

For '76 model Pontiacs, I can only think of 1 Stocker. It was raced by Mike Morgan for several years. Mike won his class at the 2014 US Nats. I'll look up that win & some other results for the car.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2014#indextop

He was #97 @ .943 under that year.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2014#indextop

Looks like Mike had it tuned up for Indy, back in July. He went .924 under at this div 3 race.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2014#indextop

Was R/U in K/SA @ the '13 US Nats.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2013#indextop

Also made the Indy field in '12, @ .945 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2012#indextop

@ Indy '11, he won the K/SA class & qualified 1.032 under. I've read that he ran Parsons & Myers power.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2011#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2011#indextop

Well, ya'll get the picture. The car was quick enuff to be competitive.

https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com...DIl7g--&GI_ID=

https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com...DIl7g--&GI_ID=

I think Kevin Love bought the car from Mike, right after Indy, '14. He was 1.105 under at the '14 Fall Classic NO.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=293473

In '15, he was #1 @ this div 6 race, with a .962 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2015#indextop

At the Lucas Oil Nats, he won K/SA & was .903 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2015#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2015#indextop

@ the Fall Classic NO, he was 1.113 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=306741

Still running strong last year at this div 5 race. #3 @ 1.031 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=356180

[oldskool]

When it comes to '77 Pontiacs, there are lots of body choices.

Thru the years, there have been LOTS of '77-'78 Bird Stockers that have been very competitive.

BUT, because of the big hp factor on the '77 400, when running a Bird body, non-Bird bodies are obviously much better choices. There have been quite a few '77 Lemans Stockers. I think Dave Ribeiro still runs one that Bob Michael built. And Wayne Larsen runs one that has been passed around.

The '77 GP that Don Himes ran is still active. As far as I know, Bob Michael has the only '77 Catalina that has been built. As I've probably mentioned, I'd like to run a Can Am clone. Just think one of those would look cool, as a Stocker. As far as I know it would be another one-of-a-kind.

I assume that for those who wanna run a '77 Bird, the 350 engine might be a little more competitive. But, even the 350 gets a 4 hp handicap, if you run it in a Bird Stocker. Mike Morgan has certainly done well with it in SS, @ 246hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

In non-Bird bodies, the base 400 is competitive, at it's current 260hp factor. How long will it remain at 260hp ? I suppose that depends on whether anybody runs quick enuff with it to make noise.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

My guess is that if you wanna run a 400 powered Bird, it would be better to run it as a '78 model, using what Mark Yac calls the "big cam" engine. It's only 7hp more, 290hp vs 283hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...7&MAKE=Pontiac

From lookin back thru the race records, I've seen that several guys have switched between claiming a '77 & a '78 Bird. I assume this is so that they could run the most competitive combo, when considering the NHRA hp factor for each engine, at the time.

Have probably asked this, but don't remember the answer. The '77-'78 Pontiacs can run the larger Q-jet, which street guys call an 800cfm. The '74 model (except for the SD455 engine) Pontiacs must run the smaller 750cfm Q-jet. There has obviously been LOTS of Q-jet testing, thru the years. So, aprox how much ET gain would the larger Q-jet make, on similar 400 Pontiac Stocker engines.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...1&MAKE=Pontiac

There have been so many competitive '77-'78 Bird Stockers, thru the years, it's hard to pick just 1 or 2, or even just a few. But, just from the research I've done, Dave Ribeiro's Bird comes to mind. It held a nat record for a couple of years. Out on the West coast, Bill Edgeworth's Bird was also a record holder. I can remember when Ryan Warter raced it & was trying to help sell it. Anybody know if it is being raced nowadays ?

So many more come to mind. You can go to DRC & look at the Stock Q-lists from the US Nats, & find lots of quick '77-'78 Birds. Seems I remember seeing a Don Holmes Bird high on the Stock Q-list. Won't try to name 'em all.

At the 2000 US Nats, Don Holmes was #2 @ 1.269 under, & won K/SA, in a '78 Bird. Dave Edwards was #5 & won L/SA, in a '78 T/A. While we're there, Danny Ashley won N/SA in a '74 GA.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop

The Indy Q-lists & class winner lists, are always very interesting to me. I like the '03 Indy lists.

Dave Edwards had the highest qualified Pontiac. He was #17 @ 1.133 under. Also won his class. There were some other notable Pontiacs on those lists. Don Himes won his class, in his '77 GP. Scott Burton won his class, as did Mike McGinley. The Biondo Bird was on the Q-list, as was Kyle Riley & Bill Rink.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

@ Indy '08, apparently Ryan Warter drove Bill Edgeworth's '77 to the #10 position @ 1.196 under, and won his K/SA class. That was also the year Todd Hoven was #7 & won G/SA, with a '72 GTO.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2008#indextop

You can add 9 pics to a post. I may see if I can find pics of 9 good '77-'78 Bird Stockers, to post. Some of these are the same car, with different owners. Most of these cars have been mentioned & pictured in this thread. But, here they are, again. Some guys may see this who would never look thru the entire thread.

Anyone with pics of '77-'78 Bird Stockers I haven't mentioned, please post info & pics of those Birds. Also, anyone who'd be willing to give us the history of any or all these cars are welcomed, & even encouraged to do so.

Between all these Birds there have been many race wins, class wins, & records set. They are part of Pontiac Stocker history. As a real Pontiac freek, I am very proud to post info & pics of these cars !

PS: As ya'll can see, white seems to be the preferred color for '77-'78 Bird Stockers.

[oldskool]

Sometimes I am amazed at Pontiac drag racing info I can find, just by doing a Google search. I have often said to my wife: "Google knows everything." .

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp...rts-nationals/

That article called my attention to the nat event at Englishtown, in 1998. I may have already posted about it. BUT, in light of talking about competitive '77-'78 Pontiac Stockers, there may not be a better single race which is more connected.

Carol Yacavone was #8, followed by Dave Ribeiro @ #9, Don Himes @ #22, Dean Ribeiro @ #27, John Rodnite @ #36, & Bill Groton @ #92. Not familiar with those last 2 names.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop

AND, check out the class winners. L/SA, M/SA, N/SA, O/SA, P/SA.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop

Checked out the '98 Indy class winners. Bob Michael was #12 @ 1.034 under, & won M/SA, in a '78 T/A. Next Pontiac on the list was the Don Holmes '78 Bird. There were also several other Pontiacs that made the 128 car field.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop

Don't have lots of pics of the non-Bird '77's. I do have pics of the '77 Lemans that Bob Michael had, which Dave Ribeiro has now. Also have 3 pics of the '77 Lemans that Kyle Riley had, then, at some point Jack Larsen had, which Wayne Larsen now races. IIRC, the 1st car was wrecked & Kyle used another body, to put another Stocker together. Those Kyle Riley cars show up on lots of DRC race results.

Can't resist mentioning the '04 Indy Stock Q-list again. There were about a dozen Pontiac V8 cars that made the 128 car field. 5 of those were '77-'78 models. Kyle Riley's '77 Lemans was one of 'em.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=2312

@ '05 Indy, Kyle won the N/SA class & Don Himes won P/SA.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2005#indextop

I think Bob Michael won class @ Indy with his Lemans. There have been several '77 non-Bird Pontiacs make the field at Indy. Bob's '77 Catalina is one of 'em. When I find 'em, I'll post some of those Indy results, here.

5/5/18 - div 3-1 - #1 - 1.064 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2018#indextop

8/30/19 - US Nats - #107 - .968 under - R/U in L/SA.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

Bob Michael was R/U in class @ the '12 US Nats, & won class in '13, over fellow Pontiac racer Don Turk. Pontiac also picked up class wins that year in D/SA, F/SA, & G/SA.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2013#indextop

Gonna post the pics I have now, then come back & swap out some, if I come across more. All who read this are welcome to post any good pics you have of non-Bird '77 Pontiac Stockers.

[oldskool]

Breaker !!!

I must make an apology to a long time Pontiac racer, who has raced the same Pontiac for a long time. I don't know when he started racing it. Maybe somebody can tell us.

And, I apologize to the Pontiac fans who knew about this car/racer, & wondered why I have not said more about it.

I've seen his name on Q-lists, in recent years. But, I suppose that because the times he ran were not very impressive, I just never thought to look for the car in the older records, until today. I am very thankful for all the race records that are available on DRC !

The car is a '74 Grand Am. The owner/driver name is Don Elgin. He raced in most of the div 6 races, & the nat event held up there every year.

They show up on DRC, in 1998. The class was N/SA. The index was 13.30, back then. He ran 12.20's at lots of races. Obviously, all those 12.20's times showed up as being more than a sec under.

I don't have a clue what the best ever ET was. But, so far, I did find this 12.132, which was 1.168 under, & good enuff for #2 position on that list.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

7/30/99 - Northwest Nats - #2 - 1.088 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop

7/28/00 - NW Nats - #2 - 1.095 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop

7/27/01 - NW Nats - #8 - 1.001 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop

When NHRA reduced the N/SA index from 13.30 down to 13.00, Don instantly lost .30, for qualifying. This '15 Q-list is a perfect example. The 12.155 would have been more than a sec under, which would have qualified near the top of most lists. But, with the 13.30 index, his time was only .845 under.

7/18/15 - div 6-4 - #18 - 12.155 - index 13.00 - .845 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2015#indextop

It appears that he just sorta backed off, at most races & ran 12.40's - 12.60's. I suppose there are not too many N/SA entries in most of the races he runs, therefore heads-up performance is not a big issue. At last years NW Nats, he actually qualified slightly above Brad Burton. Both cars were the only cars in their class.

8/2/19 - NW Nats - #25 - 12.401 - .599 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

The 1st time I ever saw Don on a Q-list was probably in around 2014 or maybe even 2015. So, his index was already 13.00. That's why his times did not impress me that much. Unless I missed something, I think I saw his name on the NW Nats Q-list every year except for one, from 1998 thru 2019. That's a pretty good attendance record. Anybody know when he 1st began racing the GA ?

Many here are by now very familiar with Don's GA. It is quite unique, & has LOTS of racing decals on it. Hey, I use to jokingly say that "Every decal adds at least 1 horsepower". Nowadays, some racers seem to want their race car to look more like a street or show car, & refuse to put any decals on 'em. As I've probably said here, I like for a race car to look like one. If I wanna see a show car, I can go to a local car show. Opinions differ.

[oldskool]

For some of you guys who know the history of recently raced '77-'78 Firebirds, I have a question.

Here is a Q-list with 5 Birds listed here as '78 models. The 1st one is listed as Don Holmes. So, I assume Rob Holmes still has that Bird.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

What about the other 4 ? Can anybody here give the history of any or all these Birds ? I realize that some or maybe even all these cars have been mentioned here before. But, I like to know who built the cars & all who have raced 'em.

They are:

(1) #4 Dave Edwards

https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com..._ACT=usrSearch

(2) #64 Mike Morgan

(3) #65 Dave Batta

https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com..._ACT=usrSearch

(4) #72 Michael Moyer

https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com..._ACT=usrSearch

Mike Morgan is listed with a '76 Bird, the following year. So, I suppose he could have just changed out the necessary body parts. But, I have no idea whether he sold his '78 or changed it over to a '76.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2004#indextop

Just an observation: I noticed that the Don Holmes & Dave Edwards Birds were at or very near the top of quite a few Q-lists, during that time period.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by oldskool

For some of you guys who know the history of recently raced '77-'78 Firebirds, I have a question.

Here is a Q-list with 5 Birds listed here as '78 models. The 1st one is listed as Don Holmes. So, I assume Rob Holmes still has that Bird.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

What about the other 4 ? Can anybody here give the history of any or all these Birds ? I realize that some or maybe even all these cars have been mentioned here before. But, I like to know who built the cars & all who have raced 'em.

They are:

(1) #4 Dave Edwards

https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com..._ACT=usrSearch

(2) #64 Mike Morgan

(3) #65 Dave Batta

https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com..._ACT=usrSearch

(4) #72 Michael Moyer

https://autoimagery.photoshelter.com..._ACT=usrSearch

Mike Morgan is listed with a '76 Bird, the following year. So, I suppose he could have just changed out the necessary body parts. But, I have no idea whether he sold his '78 or changed it over to a '76.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2004#indextop

Just an observation: I noticed that the Don Holmes & Dave Edwards Birds were at or very near the top of quite a few Q-lists, during that time period.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

1, Bob Michael car, as was / is the Don /Rob Holmes car. Two different cars.

2, Not sure, but I believe Mike converted it from a 77-78

3, My old car. I built it from a 78 T-A. donated sponsor body, as was told in the mag. articles. I changed it to a Formula.
I sold it to Dean Ribiero , who sold it to Dave Batta, who sold it to ??? ( I'll let him come forward, if he wants to)

4, not sure