Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere

Paul Merolla · 06-04-2014, 12:18 AM

Fired up my fresh 327 on Saturday to break in the cam, and after a minute or two at 2k rpm it started belching smoke. Ran it for 5 minutes till it got to 195 or so and shut it off. Let it cool, fired it again for another 5 minutes and it smoked bad the whole time. Plugs were all oily and even the bottom of the carb was dripping oil, so I pulled the intake thinking it wasn't sealed up. Tried thicker gaskets, but couldn't get the bolts started so I put it back together with new .060 gaskets and sealer. This is the same block, intake, and heads I ran last year with no problems, by the way. Fired it again, same thing.
Spoke to the experienced (and record-setting) racer / builder that's been guiding me with this build, and he's convinced that it's the valve seals. I will admit - I reused the rubber PC seals that were on the heads when I bought the engine because, hey, they didn't leak before!
So he recommended Teflon, as they were the only ones that don't leak on his engines with the high vacuum produced by the latest ring technology. I ordered them Sunday from Jeg's and got them today. I swear, these things were made for a freakin' XR80 Honda they're so tight. I ruined 5 before I quit, and I'm not even convinced that that much oil could get sucked through the guides. With the first Midwest Classracers event coming up this weekend, I need to get this fixed in a hurry...
So:
1. I don't think it could be a screwed up ring, or I'd have blowby...right? I was running it with no PCVs or breathers in the valve covers, just open holes, and plugged the vacuum port on the carb. Didn't see anything coming out of the holes.
2. Are there better valve seals than these pieces of *&^*%$# ?
You know, that can be installed by mere mortals?
3. Any other ideas I'm missing?
This is my first stocker engine, but not my first small block. It's kicked my *** the whole way, and now I can see why so many people just write a check!
Here's a smoke-filled video:
https://flic.kr/p/nPm1mC

Alan Roehrich · 06-04-2014, 12:27 AM

With the exhaust huffing smoke like that, you almost certainly have a ring seal problem. Doesn't look like valve stem seals at all. Oil on the plugs and the bottom of the carburetor is a bad sign as well, the guides would have to be so loose that the valves wouldn't seal on the seats. You need to run a compression test and a leak down test.

JRyan · 06-04-2014, 12:51 AM

Second ring in upside-down?

Jerry

Tim Lisson · 06-04-2014, 08:45 AM

Total Seal gapless top ring???

Paul Merolla · 06-04-2014, 09:13 AM

Tim, yes those are the ones. I filed to .028 as per Keith's instructions.

astikhossw · 06-04-2014, 09:49 AM

You made need to shim the top groove with that set up from Keith.

CFMCNC · 06-04-2014, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRyan

Second ring in upside-down?

Jerry

X2.Bill C.

RJ Sledge · 06-04-2014, 11:02 AM

Paul

I had a problem like that and it turned out to be the wrong size oil ring expander and rail set. They felt really loose when I put the motor together, and said to myself, if it seals up it will fly. Well, it was just as you described, pulled the motor down and replaced with a bigger expander and rail set and the car flew. If you are using Total Seal look at the label on the oil ring package and see what size is printed on it. They had sent a4.040 expander package while the top and second rings were for a finished bore size of 4.100. Believe I wound up with a 4.060 oil package set .

I always use a digital fish scale and pull a piston (with the oil ring package installed) through the cylinders to check for how much drag. I shoot for around 8 to 10 lbs. Its a little tricky, put try and keep it moving smoothly in the cylinder.

Good Luck

We learn a whole lot more from our mistakes than we do from our successes.

Hey, how long is your camper footprint? Look like it fits perfect without overhang.

RJ

Mike Pearson · 06-04-2014, 11:14 AM

I had some real bad problems with the gapless rings. After one run absolutely no compression. The engine would not start. Checked With leak down and 90% in all cylinders. Every ring was seized into the ring land both top and 2nd. I spoke to Total Seal and Patterson and no one could give me a good reason for the problem. I followed their instructions to the letter and used a premium break in oil. Definitely a ring problem.

Tim Lisson · 06-04-2014, 02:18 PM

Paul,

I'm sure there is smart engine builders out there that can make those gapless top rings work in a stocker set up, I tried and could not but I only do my own junk so take it for what its worth.... If it was me, I would pull the engine apart, scrub the cylinders with dawn dishsoap and brush them, remove the gapless top ring and throw them as far as you can, then find them and burry them so you don't try them again. Install some standard 5/64 rings and have fun.

They do seal awesome on compression, not sure what happens on the down stroke that makes them drink oil. I used two quarts in 10 dyno pulls and gave up. I heard of guys using a PCV set up to assist but with my tune port setup, it pulled oil out of the valve covers rapidly.

Good luck!

Tim

06-04-2014, 12:18 AM	#1
Paul Merolla Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Papillion, NE Posts: 596 Likes: 194 Liked 232 Times in 57 Posts	Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere Fired up my fresh 327 on Saturday to break in the cam, and after a minute or two at 2k rpm it started belching smoke. Ran it for 5 minutes till it got to 195 or so and shut it off. Let it cool, fired it again for another 5 minutes and it smoked bad the whole time. Plugs were all oily and even the bottom of the carb was dripping oil, so I pulled the intake thinking it wasn't sealed up. Tried thicker gaskets, but couldn't get the bolts started so I put it back together with new .060 gaskets and sealer. This is the same block, intake, and heads I ran last year with no problems, by the way. Fired it again, same thing. Spoke to the experienced (and record-setting) racer / builder that's been guiding me with this build, and he's convinced that it's the valve seals. I will admit - I reused the rubber PC seals that were on the heads when I bought the engine because, hey, they didn't leak before! So he recommended Teflon, as they were the only ones that don't leak on his engines with the high vacuum produced by the latest ring technology. I ordered them Sunday from Jeg's and got them today. I swear, these things were made for a freakin' XR80 Honda they're so tight. I ruined 5 before I quit, and I'm not even convinced that that much oil could get sucked through the guides. With the first Midwest Classracers event coming up this weekend, I need to get this fixed in a hurry... So: 1. I don't think it could be a screwed up ring, or I'd have blowby...right? I was running it with no PCVs or breathers in the valve covers, just open holes, and plugged the vacuum port on the carb. Didn't see anything coming out of the holes. 2. Are there better valve seals than these pieces of &^%$# ? You know, that can be installed by mere mortals? 3. Any other ideas I'm missing? This is my first stocker engine, but not my first small block. It's kicked my *** the whole way, and now I can see why so many people just write a check! Here's a smoke-filled video: https://flic.kr/p/nPm1mC

06-04-2014, 12:27 AM	#2
Alan Roehrich VIP Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 4,913 Likes: 995 Liked 1,038 Times in 272 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere With the exhaust huffing smoke like that, you almost certainly have a ring seal problem. Doesn't look like valve stem seals at all. Oil on the plugs and the bottom of the carburetor is a bad sign as well, the guides would have to be so loose that the valves wouldn't seal on the seats. You need to run a compression test and a leak down test. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S

06-04-2014, 12:51 AM	#3
JRyan Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aberdeen SD Posts: 642 Likes: 28 Liked 104 Times in 28 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere Second ring in upside-down? Jerry

06-04-2014, 08:45 AM	#4
Tim Lisson Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Solon Springs, WI Posts: 166 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere Total Seal gapless top ring???

06-04-2014, 09:13 AM	#5
Paul Merolla Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Papillion, NE Posts: 596 Likes: 194 Liked 232 Times in 57 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere Tim, yes those are the ones. I filed to .028 as per Keith's instructions.

06-04-2014, 09:49 AM	#6
astikhossw Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: moreno valley Ca Posts: 264 Likes: 2 Liked 16 Times in 8 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere You made need to shim the top groove with that set up from Keith. __________________ 7015 E/SA Sooner Storm

06-04-2014, 11:02 AM	#8
RJ Sledge Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 752 Likes: 377 Liked 247 Times in 78 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere Paul I had a problem like that and it turned out to be the wrong size oil ring expander and rail set. They felt really loose when I put the motor together, and said to myself, if it seals up it will fly. Well, it was just as you described, pulled the motor down and replaced with a bigger expander and rail set and the car flew. If you are using Total Seal look at the label on the oil ring package and see what size is printed on it. They had sent a4.040 expander package while the top and second rings were for a finished bore size of 4.100. Believe I wound up with a 4.060 oil package set . I always use a digital fish scale and pull a piston (with the oil ring package installed) through the cylinders to check for how much drag. I shoot for around 8 to 10 lbs. Its a little tricky, put try and keep it moving smoothly in the cylinder. Good Luck We learn a whole lot more from our mistakes than we do from our successes. Hey, how long is your camper footprint? Look like it fits perfect without overhang. RJ

06-04-2014, 11:14 AM	#9
Mike Pearson VIP Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,320 Likes: 546 Liked 1,629 Times in 502 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere I had some real bad problems with the gapless rings. After one run absolutely no compression. The engine would not start. Checked With leak down and 90% in all cylinders. Every ring was seized into the ring land both top and 2nd. I spoke to Total Seal and Patterson and no one could give me a good reason for the problem. I followed their instructions to the letter and used a premium break in oil. Definitely a ring problem. __________________ Mike Pearson 2485 SS

06-04-2014, 02:18 PM	#10
Tim Lisson Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Solon Springs, WI Posts: 166 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere Paul, I'm sure there is smart engine builders out there that can make those gapless top rings work in a stocker set up, I tried and could not but I only do my own junk so take it for what its worth.... If it was me, I would pull the engine apart, scrub the cylinders with dawn dishsoap and brush them, remove the gapless top ring and throw them as far as you can, then find them and burry them so you don't try them again. Install some standard 5/64 rings and have fun. They do seal awesome on compression, not sure what happens on the down stroke that makes them drink oil. I used two quarts in 10 dyno pulls and gave up. I heard of guys using a PCV set up to assist but with my tune port setup, it pulled oil out of the valve covers rapidly. Good luck! Tim